Been cheated on a car rebuild - where do I stand please?
Discussion
Dr Imran T said:
I would disagree. I can easily swap plugs/leads, however the engine is gutless. no matter how many components I replace the engine is fundamentally compromised.
It will never perform as it should. Like I said there is a difference between a very healthy engine, then one with good compression - mine however falls well below good compression.
If I replaced all the worn components, what will I be left with? a sub standard engine in my view.
You misunderstand. You should absolutely Persue this if you have been sold a duff engine. My point is this, an engine with duff plugs, leads and sensors won't run properly even if the compression is down. You do, however, have compression. You won't tell us which engine you have, so those of us here who rebuild high performance engines for a living are unable to offer reliable information.It will never perform as it should. Like I said there is a difference between a very healthy engine, then one with good compression - mine however falls well below good compression.
If I replaced all the worn components, what will I be left with? a sub standard engine in my view.
Anyway, I hope it works out for you, and you get your car sorted out.....
Right chaps - just to let you all know, I have spoken to the garage and he has agreed to take the car back and look into the situation.
I'm not sure how this will be resolved but as one other poster rightly pointed out, the garage must be offered the opportunity to fix the problem. I have agreed to let him try and resolve this before or if I go down the claims route.
I think the garage and I are not in agreement with compression values - he argues that as long as the readings are all relatively uniform than that is OK. I argue that on a high performance car the engine is crucial... had this car been a cheap run about then I would not have been overly fussed.
Either way, this has been a long drawn process and ultimately a very disappointing one.
Thank you all for you excellent insight and useful advice.
I will come back and inform this thread and let you all know of the outcome both good or bad.
Regards.
I'm not sure how this will be resolved but as one other poster rightly pointed out, the garage must be offered the opportunity to fix the problem. I have agreed to let him try and resolve this before or if I go down the claims route.
I think the garage and I are not in agreement with compression values - he argues that as long as the readings are all relatively uniform than that is OK. I argue that on a high performance car the engine is crucial... had this car been a cheap run about then I would not have been overly fussed.
Either way, this has been a long drawn process and ultimately a very disappointing one.
Thank you all for you excellent insight and useful advice.
I will come back and inform this thread and let you all know of the outcome both good or bad.
Regards.
Dr Imran T said:
Right chaps - just to let you all know, I have spoken to the garage and he has agreed to take the car back and look into the situation.
Sounds a good step forwards. If you end up arguing about whether the engine is a good'un then a rolling road test would give you a figure. Dr Imran T said:
I think the garage and I are not in agreement with compression values - he argues that as long as the readings are all relatively uniform than that is OK.
Nothing to add apart from that^ doesn't sound like you're going to get much joy from him.As someone pointed out, there is no way ANY engine running at 65% of the what the compression SHOULD be is ok or acceptable from a rebuilt engine. Your builder's refusal to acknowledge that should give you cause for concern.
Centurion07 said:
Nothing to add apart from that^ doesn't sound like you're going to get much joy from him.
As someone pointed out, there is no way ANY engine running at 65% of the what the compression SHOULD be is ok or acceptable from a rebuilt engine. Your builder's refusal to acknowledge that should give you cause for concern.
I know and this worries me BUT I have to go down this route and show I've allowed them to fix it. What he classes as a 'healthy' engine and I do are poles apart. As someone pointed out, there is no way ANY engine running at 65% of the what the compression SHOULD be is ok or acceptable from a rebuilt engine. Your builder's refusal to acknowledge that should give you cause for concern.
Silentbrown - good idea re. the RR that is something I had planned on doing. I wonder how much power this engine is down also it's all evidence to help my cause should it end up that way.
I hope it works out well for you. Currently being in the middle of a "what's going on with my rebuilt engine" saga myself, I know how painful it can be and that's without any dodgy-dealing involved.
As I said before I don't like relying on compression tests as the first and only indication of an engine's health. I'd be getting a leakdown test done and some form of dyno/RR output as well.
Re the "recently rebuilt engine", as its a performance/specialist engine, do you have any agreement with the garage of what that means? I just come back to one man's rebuild will be another's clean and paint the case (I exaggerate to make the point). Do you have any correspondence or agreement to help define what that is? Or is it just that vague statement?
Bert
As I said before I don't like relying on compression tests as the first and only indication of an engine's health. I'd be getting a leakdown test done and some form of dyno/RR output as well.
Re the "recently rebuilt engine", as its a performance/specialist engine, do you have any agreement with the garage of what that means? I just come back to one man's rebuild will be another's clean and paint the case (I exaggerate to make the point). Do you have any correspondence or agreement to help define what that is? Or is it just that vague statement?
Bert
If that 135psi is even across all cylinders then it's unlikely to be a case of wear because engines very rarely wear that evenly, especially by the time they've lost that much of their original compression!
That's not to say there isn't a problem, but it's far more likely to be something built wrong (such as thick gasket / LC pistons fitted / replacement head off different capacity engine) than wear. If anything, that would point towards the "recent rebuild" being true, even if it was done badly.
The first garage might be innocent in that if they didn't rebuild the engine itself but they're still liable if they supplied and fitted.
That's not to say there isn't a problem, but it's far more likely to be something built wrong (such as thick gasket / LC pistons fitted / replacement head off different capacity engine) than wear. If anything, that would point towards the "recent rebuild" being true, even if it was done badly.
The first garage might be innocent in that if they didn't rebuild the engine itself but they're still liable if they supplied and fitted.
You're getting technical chaps. I am aware that low compression that is uniformly down might point to a bad build.
I suspected a tooth out on the timing, however after this has been done, there isn't a significant improvement.
I was told the said engine is 300+ bhp. I have yet to dyno this engine. I think that is my next step. If I get a very low rolling road figure then I can quantity that the engine is significantly down on power.
Also leak down test is being done. We have just about exhausted every test. Results still show the same.
Only thing I can think of,is it may improve a little with some decent miles put on it?? Can tell if the engine has been stood for a period prior to installation.
I suspected a tooth out on the timing, however after this has been done, there isn't a significant improvement.
I was told the said engine is 300+ bhp. I have yet to dyno this engine. I think that is my next step. If I get a very low rolling road figure then I can quantity that the engine is significantly down on power.
Also leak down test is being done. We have just about exhausted every test. Results still show the same.
Only thing I can think of,is it may improve a little with some decent miles put on it?? Can tell if the engine has been stood for a period prior to installation.
Dr Imran T said:
You're getting technical chaps. I am aware that low compression that is uniformly down might point to a bad build.
It's not so much a case of getting technical, just a suggestion to be a little careful of what you accuse the garage of.If they bought in an engine with receipts for a rebuild in good faith, then they may have been negligent in not checking it over but they haven't acted fraudulently.
No matter how (rightly) angry you are about it, start accusing them of fraud and you gives them something to defend, and a way to deflect from the real issue - the poor standard of the engine.
Whereas sticking to the demonstrable facts of low compression / low power etc doesn't. It doesn't matter to your case whether its condition was caused by fraud or simple incompetence, so why complicate things
^^ some great points you raise. A so called specialist should not have sent the car back to me without doing some basic checks.
Would it not have been reasonable to do some checks before the car was given back to me?
In hindsight for the amount spent, I could have rebuilt my old engine rather than drop in a 'good' rebuilt one.
I also asked this of said garage - what was the best option to get the car back on the road.
Let's be clear _ I thought it was sensible to take the advice of the specialist.
I also don't buy it that the garage may be innocent in all this. They know the history of this engine and we're happy to chance it.
Maybe someone else might have settled for this - I'm not prepared to do that.
Would it not have been reasonable to do some checks before the car was given back to me?
In hindsight for the amount spent, I could have rebuilt my old engine rather than drop in a 'good' rebuilt one.
I also asked this of said garage - what was the best option to get the car back on the road.
Let's be clear _ I thought it was sensible to take the advice of the specialist.
I also don't buy it that the garage may be innocent in all this. They know the history of this engine and we're happy to chance it.
Maybe someone else might have settled for this - I'm not prepared to do that.
Dr Imran T said:
I also don't buy it that the garage may be innocent in all this. They know the history of this engine and we're happy to chance it.
Maybe someone else might have settled for this - I'm not prepared to do that.
It's not a case of "buying it", it's a case of focusing your complaint, especially if it ends up in court.Maybe someone else might have settled for this - I'm not prepared to do that.
If you start accusing fraud or cheating then they can concentrate on that in their defence and derail things from the REAL issue, which is the condition of the engine.
Because they supplied and fitted, it doesn't matter in the slightest from a legal POV whether or not they knew it was iffy. ALL that matters is that it has problems and THEY are liable, whether they knew or not.
By suggesting any deliberate wrongdoing by them you're introducing something that has no bearing on whether they're liable for any problems (they are) or on any remedy you're entitled to.
Claiming fraud or cheating by them honestly WON'T strengthen your case, and may well weaken it. So, even if you believe they acted deliberately, the smart course is to put your anger at that to one side and just go after the problems with the engine.
Encantada said:
You do know a leakdown test is not the same as a compression test, they effectively look for aspects of a healthy engine in a dissimilar way.
K.
Yes, I know the difference. My point is that we are conducting as many different tests as possible; and have come to the conclusion that something is wrong or the engine is just tired. K.
V8LM said:
I'm no expert, but if the engine is 135 psi across all cylinders, why would it be 'lumpy'?
What was wrong with the old engine?
I'm sure the engine builders in this thread may know better. If the compression is uniformly low that may not cause 'lumpy' running.What was wrong with the old engine?
It will however cause the engine to be down on power. Lumpy running could be down to many factors - poor timing,worn components etc.
A single cyclinder out on compression would also cause lumpy running too.
Sure the experts can confirm.
Can you share the leakdown test results and what the RR figures are for the engine?
Unless the garage roll over and my guess is that they won't it will be helpful for you to be cast iron in your claim. Eg
You said it would be 300+ bhp and it's only xxx.
And to back that up the leak down tests say the valves and or rings are poor
And to back that up the compression is poor
You said it was recently rebuilt when the figures show it isn't
You said it was recently rebuilt when the state of the engine and the peripherals clearly contradicts this.
You have failed in your duty to do a job of merchantable quality.
As a consumer and non expert I relied on your skills and expertise.
HTH
Bert
Unless the garage roll over and my guess is that they won't it will be helpful for you to be cast iron in your claim. Eg
You said it would be 300+ bhp and it's only xxx.
And to back that up the leak down tests say the valves and or rings are poor
And to back that up the compression is poor
You said it was recently rebuilt when the figures show it isn't
You said it was recently rebuilt when the state of the engine and the peripherals clearly contradicts this.
You have failed in your duty to do a job of merchantable quality.
As a consumer and non expert I relied on your skills and expertise.
HTH
Bert
As has been mentioned earlier, it sounds like the engine compression is low, due to the way the engine has been built (ie low compression pistons)rather than mechanical defect.
If the engine was faulty, it would be an incredible co-incidence that all of the cylinders were showing the same, low reading.
Tim
If the engine was faulty, it would be an incredible co-incidence that all of the cylinders were showing the same, low reading.
Tim
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