A risky undertake on the A11. Any opinions?

[Jazzer]

silentbrown said:

Jazzer said:

Dashcam man should have been in lane 1 in the early part of the footage, as evidenced by the large gap in front of him in lane 2, into which the first car moved with ease from lane1

So if he'd been tailgating the car in front he'd be justified to stay in that lane?

Your query displays a lack of logical thinking, with "so" being indicative of an unjustified jump in thinking.

With practice though, you will almost certainly improve, so don't despair just yet!!!

[silentbrown]

Jazzer said:

Your query displays a lack of logical thinking, with "so" being indicative of an unjustified jump in thinking.

I think it's called 'dramatic effect'. Maybe I need to work on it.

But I stick with my point. The gap to the car in front is around 2 seconds ("only a fool" and all that), but you say that shows he's in the wrong lane. In your opinion, what gap would "justify" him being in that lane?

[Pit Pony]

9mm said:

Phil303 said:

Pit Pony said:

Dash cam man, was in "the fast lane" too fking long. That don't excuse the very late undertake of the focus, but fk me, I bet focus man must have been pissed off for miles before that.

Utter dribble.

.

Not sure that tractor is in view at the start of the clip.

We'll never know the full story.

If what I wrote is "utter dribble" then I take back it all and Replace it with "Dash cam man, was in "the fast lane" not that long considering. That was a neatly executed and very safe undertake by the focus. but fk me, I bet focus man must have been happy and contented for yards before that"

There was no excuse for the stupid undertake, BUT I'm sure that if dash cam man, had chosen to move to the inside lane, for a few seconds, the focus would have been past before the tractor even came into view. I bet the dash cam man, turned right at the next roundabout, and had actually been in the fast lane for a fking week. Like I said though "NO EXCUSE for the stupidly executed undertake!"

[Cockey]

Pit Pony said:

9mm said:

Phil303 said:

Pit Pony said:

Dash cam man, was in "the fast lane" too fking long. That don't excuse the very late undertake of the focus, but fk me, I bet focus man must have been pissed off for miles before that.

Utter dribble.

.

Not sure that tractor is in view at the start of the clip.

We'll never know the full story.

If what I wrote is "utter dribble" then I take back it all and Replace it with "Dash cam man, was in "the fast lane" not that long considering. That was a neatly executed and very safe undertake by the focus. but fk me, I bet focus man must have been happy and contented for yards before that"

There was no excuse for the stupid undertake, BUT I'm sure that if dash cam man, had chosen to move to the inside lane, for a few seconds, the focus would have been past before the tractor even came into view. I bet the dash cam man, turned right at the next roundabout, and had actually been in the fast lane for a fking week. Like I said though "NO EXCUSE for the stupidly executed undertake!"

But it wasn't dash cam holding the traffic up. He was behind a car in the fast lane himself.

[Mave]

Pit Pony said:

There was no excuse for the stupid undertake, BUT I'm sure that if dash cam man, had chosen to move to the inside lane, for a few seconds, the focus would have been past before the tractor even came into view.

Past who? The camera car? How can he do that without closing up on the car in front?

[Blakewater]

There's one true PH hero in this video and that's the Citroen driver who gets his nose right up the tractor driver's bum before dodging round at the last second. People get very carried away on here with accusations of lane hogging to the point where they think all traffic should part like the Red Sea for them and they justify dangerous driving like this.

Courtesy and consideration for others is what keeps everyone safe, calm and happy on the road and keeps the traffic flowing. Watch the video and you can see the tractor ahead and you can see two vehicles in the inside lane gaining on it quickly. What's really the right thing to do?

1) Drive right up to the bumper of the car directly in front so as not to look like you're lane hogging and willfully force the 4x4 driver and the Citroen driver to brake behind the tractor and lose speed when they need to pull out into faster traffic. That's what not moving out sooner gets you.

2) Pull in a short distance behind the tractor and get trapped there by people doing the above.

3) Stay safely back from the melee of lane changing and braking and people joining and exiting the carriageway, so all those not planning ahead very well can smoothly overtake the tractor and do what they need to do, but still make progress to pass the tractor yourself.

There's a difference between lane hogging and keeping a safe amount of space around your car. Sometimes it's prudent to maintain a two second following position behind someone, even when they're in a different lane to you, rather than drive alongside them or try to overtake when they look likely to move into your lane at any second.

I came across someone on a friend's Facebook profile the other day who was crying about how she'd driven into the back of someone who'd pulled out in front of her on a dual carriageway like this. She apparently saw he was gaining on a broken down car in the inside lane but, instead of holding back knowing he would pull out, she kept gaining so he pulled out in front of her too closely for her to avoid a collision. Of course he should have been checking his mirrors but a good driver avoids collisions as far as possible, even none fault ones, and exercises courtesy towards all other road users as far as possible.

[mrmr96]

I think the problem in the original clip was that maybe the blue focus driver didn't see the tractor in lane 1. He thought he could undertake the dashcamer, but when the car behind the tractor moves it reveals the slow moving tractor to the focus, who has to choose between slamming on the brakes and hoping not to hit the rear of the tractor, or swinging into the small gap in front of the dashcamer. The focus put itself into a position where he had very few options and that was a mistake. However everyone was fortunate that the outcome was that no crash occured.

[heebeegeetee]

Blakewater said:

There's one true PH hero in this video and that's the Citroen driver who gets his nose right up the tractor driver's bum before dodging round at the last second. People get very carried away on here with accusations of lane hogging to the point where they think all traffic should part like the Red Sea for them and they justify dangerous driving like this.

Courtesy and consideration for others is what keeps everyone safe, calm and happy on the road and keeps the traffic flowing. Watch the video and you can see the tractor ahead and you can see two vehicles in the inside lane gaining on it quickly. What's really the right thing to do?

1) Drive right up to the bumper of the car directly in front so as not to look like you're lane hogging and willfully force the 4x4 driver and the Citroen driver to brake behind the tractor and lose speed when they need to pull out into faster traffic. That's what not moving out sooner gets you.

2) Pull in a short distance behind the tractor and get trapped there by people doing the above.

3) Stay safely back from the melee of lane changing and braking and people joining and exiting the carriageway, so all those not planning ahead very well can smoothly overtake the tractor and do what they need to do, but still make progress to pass the tractor yourself.

There's a difference between lane hogging and keeping a safe amount of space around your car. Sometimes it's prudent to maintain a two second following position behind someone, even when they're in a different lane to you, rather than drive alongside them or try to overtake when they look likely to move into your lane at any second.

I came across someone on a friend's Facebook profile the other day who was crying about how she'd driven into the back of someone who'd pulled out in front of her on a dual carriageway like this. She apparently saw he was gaining on a broken down car in the inside lane but, instead of holding back knowing he would pull out, she kept gaining so he pulled out in front of her too closely for her to avoid a collision. Of course he should have been checking his mirrors but a good driver avoids collisions as far as possible, even none fault ones, and exercises courtesy towards all other road users as far as possible.

Well said, and indeed the camera car may not even have braked at any point. In that tiny bit of film which is all we see of camera man's driving, he is actually driving very well and is holding nobody up. It's very disappointing to see how many drivers on an enthusiasts site like this are unable to see this.

[KingNothing]

I had to undertake a learner driver recently, now before anyone crucifies me, the driving instructor (if you could actually call him that, I'd just call him a guy who happens access to have a dual control car) was taking the piss with the manoeuvre he was getting his student to do. NSL DC, LGV doing 60 in the left hand lane, driving instructor makes the student pull out, well over 500 yards behind the LGV and go for an overtake, at 40 miles per hour! I come up behind at 70 because it's safe to do that speed, I have to drop down to 40 to stop closing on them, their acceleration is glacial, so I just went for the undertake, suppose I could have flashed them to move back over, but think that might have caused more distress, so I just passed on the left, and was about 300 yards infront of them by the time I was back in the right hand lane and overtaking the LGV, I didn't carve them up at the last second, because they were going too slow for that. To put it in perspective, I drove that road with my driving instructor, and overtook things on it, and he would essentially be shouting at me and effectively pushing me to press harder on the throttle, to actually get up to an acceptable speed before attempting to move over to overtake something. Hopefully the student questioned his teaching methods afterwards on why they were trying to overtake something 500 yards away that was going 20 miles an hour faster than them.

But I'm finding it more and more often now, that I have to pass people on the left to actually make any progress. People just get in the right hand lanes and are in their own little bubble, and act as if they own that lane and no-one can use it. It's scary asking some friends (mainly women) what they'd do if a car comes up fast behind them, and pretty much all of them said just stay there and he can wait behind me, instead of saying move back over when it's safe to allow him to pass as he wants to go faster.

Edited by KingNothing on Wednesday 29th October 06:58

[Red Devil]

heebeegeetee said:

Well said, and indeed the camera car may not even have braked at any point. In that tiny bit of film which is all we see of camera man's driving, he is actually driving very well and is holding nobody up. It's very disappointing to see how many drivers on an enthusiasts site like this are unable to see this.

^^This^^

Without a rear facing camera we have no information about how much traffic there may or may not have been in lane 1 - i.e. whether camera car was 'lane hogging' (as assumed by many posters) or there was a line of cars therein. Nor can we know the relative positions of the Focus and the camera car at the point the footage begins. If the Focus was directly behind the camera car at the outset the undertake could easily have been performed before the overbridge. That it wasn't suggests the Focus was approaching from some way back considerably faster than the camera car and caught up bewteen the bridge and the BP filling station. The speed differential at the moment of the the undertake supports this contention imo.

My guess (and that is all it is - a guess) is that the Focus driver was taken by surprise by the camera car slowing down (probably by acceleration sense rather than braking) and decided on the banzai undertake. The driver was very lucky that the car which had just overtaken the tractor moved back sharpish otherwise it is quite likely that a rear-ender would have ensued. Indeed the Focus veers to the edge of lane 2 with its tyres on the white line and there is not even a momentary flicker of the brake lights.

Utter wit. One day his/her luck is going to run out and a multiple vehicle collision could be the likely result. Possibly with fatal consequences.

[anonymous-user]

Pit Pony said:

I bet the dash cam man, turned right at the next roundabout, and had actually been in the fast lane for a fking week. Like I said though "NO EXCUSE for the stupidly executed undertake!"

Here's where local knowledge comes in: the story said the dash cam driver was heading home to Attleborough. The slip road to take to Attleborough is on the left, not too far ahead of the section in this clip. If anything, the dashcam driver would be wanting to get into the LHL soonish. I suggest he was in the RHL as he was thinking ahead regarding the traffic he had seen pulling out to overtake. And he was doing circa 70 for most of the clip - what's all this talk of driving at 50 and holding people up?

I can't believe people on here are vilifying him and making allowances for the Focus driver. I'm amazed.

[jmorgan]

Problem is this is not the first nor will it be the last. I see it quite often, drivers are impatient and invincible. Many are just thick.

[Mave]

KingNothing said:

instead of saying move back over when it's safe to allow him to pass as he wants to go faster.

What makes you think the camera car didn't want to go faster?

[ORD]

Spot on. The dashcammer's driving appears to be pretty much impeccable in this clip. He is facilitating the smooth flow of traffic while maintaining a safe distance and keeping at the speed limit when safe to do so.

Anyone who criticises his driving or make excuses for the Focus has no fking clue. You don't have to be up the arse of the car in front to make decent progress; that just makes you a dangerous driver and a moron. I get pretty pissed off with people who get on my tail because I am keeping a safe distance from the car in front or using some forward thinking to ease off rather than brake at the last second. I've no idea how these idiots would survive without ABS and other driving aids, as they have no perception of speed, distance and risk.

Edited by ORD on Wednesday 29th October 08:56

[LucreLout]

heebeegeetee said:

This is a point you and so many people miss - the speed of the camera car is being dictated by the traffic in front. Until that traffic clears you don't know which is the faster car. Catching a car up in front that is being delayed by traffic doesn't mean you are faster than it - when the traffic clears the car in fromt may disappear into the distance.

It never does though, does it? Invariably it's just holding me up until they finish passing whatever is holding them up, then I pass them too.
It's more efficient if everyone dips in and out of the overtaking lane to, well, overtake, rather than queue. There is no queue.

[ORD]

LucreLout said:

heebeegeetee said:

This is a point you and so many people miss - the speed of the camera car is being dictated by the traffic in front. Until that traffic clears you don't know which is the faster car. Catching a car up in front that is being delayed by traffic doesn't mean you are faster than it - when the traffic clears the car in fromt may disappear into the distance.

It never does though, does it? Invariably it's just holding me up until they finish passing whatever is holding them up, then I pass them too.
It's more efficient if everyone dips in and out of the overtaking lane to, well, overtake, rather than queue. There is no queue.

Obviously wrong. Think about it for more than 2 seconds. If the cammer had ducked in for 1 second, he would have had to brake hard or cause those overtaking him to brake for him to get back out. Anything that causes people to brake and accelerate hard and switch between lanes very frequently will massively increase risk (not least given how poor most drivers are at estimating speed differentials, etc.). The cammer's driving was faultless.

I would have done the same in these circumstances and then out-accelerated the douche bag in a repmobile who had attached himself to my tail to show what a big and important man he is.

[silentbrown]

KingNothing said:

I had to undertake a learner driver recently

No, you didn't. You chose to. Learner drivers are like horses - give them a wide berth, plenty of time, and try and remember when YOU had 'L' plates on.

I know it's frustrating when you come up behind juggernaut racers or lane-hoggers on an empty motorway/DC, but next time try just relaxing, leaving a safe gap, and congratulate yourself on how much better your driving is than theirs. Patience is a virtue, and trying to 'make progress' in those conditions usually just ends in frustration. Or worse.

[anonymous-user]

IF the camera car had been hogging lane 2 for ages, impeding the Focus driver and IF he was doing so in the absence of any traffic to overtake in lane 1 (which is a view many here have shared) then why did the Focus driver undertake at the most dangerous moment? Slip roads, a tractor and other cars closing up and changing lanes.

He could have been past ages ago when lane 1 was clear, if we assume dash cam car was ignoring an empty lane 1 for the last few miles.

If lane 1 wasn't empty, which prevented Focus driver from undertaking sooner, then dash cam man MUST have been overtaking ( due to his speed and gaining on traffic) so he is absolutely in the right lane.

[Mave]

LucreLout said:

It's more efficient if everyone dips in and out of the overtaking lane to, well, overtake, rather than queue. There is no queue.

Of course there's a queue. There's more than one car closing on a tractor. Someone up ahead is overtaking the tractor at 80, people behind are stacked up at the correct separation doing 80, so that lane is at maximum capacity through the overtaking bottle neck. How is dipping in and out of lane 1 going to get more traffic through that bottleneck?

[ORD]

Mave said:

Of course there's a queue. There's more than one car closing on a tractor. Someone up ahead is overtaking the tractor at 80, people behind are stacked up at the correct separation doing 80, so that lane is at maximum capacity through the overtaking bottle neck. How is dipping in and out of lane 1 going to get more traffic through that bottleneck?

It's not. Those criticising the cammer are really saying "Why isn't he tailgating if he is making progress? That's what I do!"