Letting other drivers know of approaching Scamera vans
Discussion
AA999 said:
mybrainhurts said:
It's not an offence if you believe the driver you're warning is not exceeding the speed limit.
All in all, it's a disgraceful waste of police time and resources.
But it was wrote earlier in the thread that the courts would see it otherwise, in that it would be obstruction of an officer in his duty..... All in all, it's a disgraceful waste of police time and resources.
The Mad Monk said:
Shall we assume for a few moments that this is a serious question and you would like a serious answer?
As a parallel, supposing you were approaching a bank and saw a number of policemen, armed to the teeth, in hiding. A little nearer to the bank you saw what were obviously robbers about to rob said bank, if you were to tell those potential robbers that policemen were waiting for them, you would have stopped a crime being committed.
Would you think it unreasonable if the police charged you with an offence?
Dude- you are answering a question from someone's post dated November 2014.As a parallel, supposing you were approaching a bank and saw a number of policemen, armed to the teeth, in hiding. A little nearer to the bank you saw what were obviously robbers about to rob said bank, if you were to tell those potential robbers that policemen were waiting for them, you would have stopped a crime being committed.
Would you think it unreasonable if the police charged you with an offence?
But to humour your reply a little - It would indeed be unreasonable to be charged with any offence and you should be given a medal for stopping what could have been a serious crime
A little bit along the lines of grabbing the gun from a corner shop robber and bettering them out of your premises.
mybrainhurts said:
I don't have a link, but I remember a report of a case where it was deemed not be an offence where the warner did not believe the warned to be exceeding the limit.
Out of interest was that with a police car/van speed trap or was it with the so called 'safety' van (sometimes called 'safety' camera partnership)?Because one will have the offence "obstructing an office in the course of duty" (or word to that effect - under certain conditions) and the other may not have any offence at all, as I don't think there is an offence for 'obstructing a member of public in the course of his/her duty". (?)
"Any person who resists or wilfully obstructs a constable in the execution of his duty, or a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or to both."
Bit on bold might cover that.
Bit on bold might cover that.
HantsRat said:
"Any person who resists or wilfully obstructs a constable in the execution of his duty, or a person assisting a constable in the execution of his duty, shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale, or to both."
Bit on bold might cover that.
So would there have to be a constable "on-site" so to speak? Bit on bold might cover that.
(ie. either in the van or parked close by)
Or would the 'safety' van have to be 'assigned' to a specific constable (or group of), in order they be termed to be "assisting" ?
Moonhawk said:
La Liga said:
he idea is avoiding the 'dangerous behaviour' in such a manner doesn't provide a sustained change of behaviour, whereas the punitive measures that would have otherwise be forthcoming would.
If this is the case - then surely the use of speed camera warning signs (like the one I posted above) and painting speed cameras yellow should be discouraged.If the punitive measure is the one that has the most effect in changing driver behaviour - then surely all speed cameras should be covert.
Regarding this idea of changing driver behaviour with scamvans and points, and those who support it despite the evidence that it doesn't work in general as a deterrent...be careful what you wish for - if it does work it's not necessarily a good thing.
A doctor giving evidence at a North Wales inquest into the road death of the man he had hit and killed at 30mph said:
I was aware that this was a speed enforcement area so I was monitoring my speed carefully. When I looked up, there he was.
If I walk round corner and see 2 chaps trading blows and warn them that the police are around having seen them pull up and park just before I went round the corner.
Could I be accused of obstructing the officers in their duties if the said chaps have stopped fighting and are in a warm embrace by the time the police reach their location?
What a waste of police time but hey its all about that revenue.
Could I be accused of obstructing the officers in their duties if the said chaps have stopped fighting and are in a warm embrace by the time the police reach their location?
What a waste of police time but hey its all about that revenue.
turbobloke said:
Moonhawk said:
La Liga said:
The idea is avoiding the 'dangerous behaviour' in such a manner doesn't provide a sustained change of behaviour, whereas the punitive measures that would have otherwise be forthcoming would.
If this is the case - then surely the use of speed camera warning signs (like the one I posted above) and painting speed cameras yellow should be discouraged.If the punitive measure is the one that has the most effect in changing driver behaviour - then surely all speed cameras should be covert.
There are many people who don't return to prison for assault after being imprisoned once for it. On the other hand, there are those that do re-offend and return to prison for subsequent assaults. Following the logic that the risk of punishment isn't a deterrent for speeding because there are those that acquire more points than 3, is the idea that the risk of punishment for assaulting someone is a deterrent also unfounded because it is doesn't deter some people?
Eclassy said:
If I walk round corner and see 2 chaps trading blows and warn them that the police are around having seen them pull up and park just before I went round the corner.
Could I be accused of obstructing the officers in their duties if the said chaps have stopped fighting and are in a warm embrace by the time the police reach their location?
Only if you take no time whatsoever to understand the law and post something made-up and stupid. Could I be accused of obstructing the officers in their duties if the said chaps have stopped fighting and are in a warm embrace by the time the police reach their location?
AA999 said:
Dude- you are answering a question from someone's post dated November 2014.
But to humour your reply a little - It would indeed be unreasonable to be charged with any offence and you should be given a medal for stopping what could have been a serious crime
A little bit along the lines of grabbing the gun from a corner shop robber and bettering them out of your premises.
"Dude" - how quaint.But to humour your reply a little - It would indeed be unreasonable to be charged with any offence and you should be given a medal for stopping what could have been a serious crime
A little bit along the lines of grabbing the gun from a corner shop robber and bettering them out of your premises.
According to the "Police, Camera Action" type programme, the police regularly monitor disqualified drivers, but have to catch them in the act, which means allowing them to commit the crime before they can apprehend the miscreant. They would not thank you if you warned the driver that police were waiting to arrest them as soon as they start driving.
La Liga said:
turbobloke said:
Moonhawk said:
La Liga said:
The idea is avoiding the 'dangerous behaviour' in such a manner doesn't provide a sustained change of behaviour, whereas the punitive measures that would have otherwise be forthcoming would.
If this is the case - then surely the use of speed camera warning signs (like the one I posted above) and painting speed cameras yellow should be discouraged.If the punitive measure is the one that has the most effect in changing driver behaviour - then surely all speed cameras should be covert.
There are many people who don't return to prison for assault after being imprisoned once for it. On the other hand, there are those that do re-offend and return to prison for subsequent assaults. Following the logic that the risk of punishment isn't a deterrent for speeding because there are those that acquire more points than 3, is the idea that the risk of punishment for assaulting someone is a deterrent also unfounded because it is doesn't deter some people?
The points system isn't working except to increase insurance premiums and even then not always by much. 3 points don't work well enough in the group that could benefit most from being deterred, recently qualified young male drivers. In the same year as the previous stats I posted, 50,000 new drivers lost their licence for reaching 6 points and 80% of those were men mostly under 25.
It's not a perfect system, and I don't really like the generalised approach to risk, but I think it's a bit too far to dismiss it as having no / little deterrent. It's anecdotal, but we've many people on here put results of them being close to a ban and saying "I'll be keeping my speed down now"? Obviously that's when they have a greater number of points, but it's the same principle.
Whether or not deterring people from speeding in such a manner has a worthwhile impact on road safety is another matter.
Whether or not deterring people from speeding in such a manner has a worthwhile impact on road safety is another matter.
mybrainhurts said:
AA999 said:
mybrainhurts said:
It's not an offence if you believe the driver you're warning is not exceeding the speed limit.
All in all, it's a disgraceful waste of police time and resources.
But it was wrote earlier in the thread that the courts would see it otherwise, in that it would be obstruction of an officer in his duty..... All in all, it's a disgraceful waste of police time and resources.
The outcome was nothing to do with what Glendinning believed, but because none of the vehicles overtaking him on the d/c were breaking the limit.
Otoh Stuart Harding was convicted - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/3340963/Motor...
So was Michael Thompson - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/82391...
Comment on the latter case here - http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/201...
In Glendinning reference was made to Betts v Stevens [1910] 1 KB 1. The AA found a neat way to get round that which made nigh on impossible for the police to bring a case against their patrols. I'm old enough to remember a time many years ago when, if you were an AA member displaying the metal badge on your car and the patrolman on his motorbike and sidecar did not salute it was a sure-fire indication that there was a speed trap further down the road. I was with my father one day when he suddenly abated his speed for no reason I could figure out. He had been making very swift progress until that point. Lo and behold, a mile and a half down the road the limit began and there the police were, lurking a little way inside the lolly waiting to pounce on the unwarned/unwary.
I was completely mystified how he could possibly have known in advance until he explained the secret code.
johnboy1975 said:
Phatboy317 said:
Is it then also an offence to deliberately drive at the speed limit, knowing there's a scamvan ahead, because in doing so you're forcing all the lawbreakers behind you to slow down?
Seeing as this thread is open for business again, anyone got an answer?I still cant believe they banned that pensioner from driving when he wasnt in or near a car and the offence had NOTHING to do with his driving.
What he did he didnt even need a licence to do, so how would they have fairly punnished a non-driver for such a non-driving offence??
What next, you steal an oil filter from halfrauds so get 3 poins as its loosely motoring related?
What he did he didnt even need a licence to do, so how would they have fairly punnished a non-driver for such a non-driving offence??
What next, you steal an oil filter from halfrauds so get 3 poins as its loosely motoring related?
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