Scottish Drink Drving Chages

[Phatboy317]

All this talk about a Federal United Kingdom.

What would the acronym for that be, I wonder?

[XJ Flyer]

Phatboy317 said:

All this talk about a Federal United Kingdom.

What would the acronym for that be, I wonder?

We've actually got a 'federal' UK.All the 'talk' is those like the federalists in the Libdem Party etc trying to dress up a Federation as a Confederation in the form of pretend devolution to appease the nationalist and throw them off course.When examples such as this prove that it is a federation.

[TooMany2cvs]

XJ Flyer said:

It is a federation of different nations.

England hasn't been a single separate country since 1283, and was only a single country for about 300 years before that - half of which it was under French rule.
Wales has never been a single separate country.
Scotland hasn't been a single separate country since 1707, despite Alex's best efforts earlier this year.
Northern Ireland has never been a single separate country.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the only thing which can be meaningfully viewed as a country in any sensible way whatsoever. And, if you don't believe me, look on the front of your flippin' passport and driving licence...

If you view the UK as a "federation", surely England is also a "federation", of Mercia, Wessex, etc etc?

[XJ Flyer]

TooMany2cvs said:

XJ Flyer said:

It is a federation of different nations.

England hasn't been a single separate country since 1283, and was only a single country for about 300 years before that - half of which it was under French rule.
Wales has never been a single separate country.
Scotland hasn't been a single separate country since 1707, despite Alex's best efforts earlier this year.
Northern Ireland has never been a single separate country.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the only thing which can be meaningfully viewed as a country in any sensible way whatsoever. And, if you don't believe me, look on the front of your flippin' passport and driving licence...

If you view the UK as a "federation", surely England is also a "federation", of Mercia, Wessex, etc etc?

If the UK wasn't a federation there would be no such thing as the situation in which different traffic etc laws apply in Scotland with a single UK driving licence administration and penalty system.Just like America.

As for England that was a 'Confederation' of Wessex,Mercia etc.IE the component parts retained individual sovereignty and precedence over all decisions and administration of the group as a whole.At least until the Athalstan turned England into a federation by way of unification of government against the wishes of Wessex.In which case had England survived in that earlier form there would have been no reason as to why an offence committed against local Mercian,let alone Scottish,traffic laws would have automatically meant a licence penalty in Wessex on a Wessex issued licence for example.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 6th December 17:12

Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 6th December 17:15

Edited by XJ Flyer on Saturday 6th December 17:22

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Phatboy317 said:

A driving ban is tantamount to a prison sentence for a great many people - except perhaps the rich who don't need to work and pay mortgages etc.
Is it right to be imprisoned in your home country for breaking some law in another country, when it would not have been against the law at home?

Losing your licence akin to prison.....are you on drugs?

I'm not sure you're aware, but not being able to drive still allows you to walk, ride a pushbike, take the bus, train, taxi, or get a lift from someone else.

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Saturday 6th December 17:40

[Phatboy317]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Losing your licence akin to prison.....are you on drugs?

I'm not sure you're aware, but not being able to drive still allows you to walk, ride a pushbike, take the bus, train, taxi, or get a lift from someone else.

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Saturday 6th December 17:40

You evidently didn't notice the "for a great many people" bit.

While we're on the subject of dodgy comparisons though, your earlier one about doing 60mph in a 20, as opposed to on a motorway, takes some beating.

[GreigM]

XJ Flyer said:

No,as it stands,you won't get penalties on a UK issued licence for an offence committed locally in another EU country.

.
Indeed. However, this IS NOT another EU state. You have a UK license, you are breaking a UK law. Your point would apply if you had an English driving license, but you don't, so it isn't.

[XJ Flyer]

GreigM said:

XJ Flyer said:

No,as it stands,you won't get penalties on a UK issued licence for an offence committed locally in another EU country.

.
Indeed. However, this IS NOT another EU state. You have a UK license, you are breaking a UK law. Your point would apply if you had an English driving license, but you don't, so it isn't.

In this case it isn't a 'UK' law it is a 'Scottish' one.In which case if we're going to have a joined up federal UK based licence penalty system we need a federal joined up UK based system of traffic laws.Which at least in this case is what we had until the Scottish chose to make a unilateral change in that regard.

Hopefully all the above issues are what at least might stop the EU federalists getting their way in regard to an EU cross border licence penalty system.Ironically in that case ( hopefully ) it will be our speed matters allies amongst the Germans who'll stop it.

[GreigM]

XJ Flyer said:

In this case it isn't a 'UK' law it is a 'Scottish' one.

The limit is set by the Scottish government, however the law is a UK one, which applies to your UK driving license.

[XJ Flyer]

GreigM said:

XJ Flyer said:

In this case it isn't a 'UK' law it is a 'Scottish' one.

The limit is set by the Scottish government, however the law is a UK one, which applies to your UK driving license.

If it was a 'UK' law it would apply throughout the UK in which case why the unilateral change.As I've said just like the UK opt out of the EU cross border fines system it is my guess that this is just a trojan horse to make the case for an EU federal licence penalty system with local different local traffic laws.Just as is the case in the US.That would be the only reason which would explain why the rest of the UK either didn't apply the same change as the Scottish limit,or tell the Scottish that they can't apply unilateral different traffic regs than apply in the rest of the UK.

[Dammit]

Would it be a bad thing, getting points on your UK licence for breaking the law in Forrin, and vice versa?

It would seem to be an advantage of the EU that dangerously poor drivers could be banned more efficiently by bringing their transgressions abroad back home with them.

[TooMany2cvs]

XJ Flyer said:

If it was a 'UK' law it would apply throughout the UK

(for the third time)
The applicable law is the Road Traffic Act 1988, section 5. That applies - UNLIKE OTHER PARTS OF RTA88 - to England, Wales, Scotland and NI. RTA88s5 will STILL apply. The wording won't change. The ONLY difference is in the "prescribed limit" applicable.

How about instead of Scotland, the limit was being reduced to 50 for HGV and PSV drivers...? If somebody was stopped driving an HGV whilst between 50 and 80, they'd lose their licence. And that licence loss would apply to ALL classes of vehicle, right...?

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Phatboy317 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Losing your licence akin to prison.....are you on drugs?

I'm not sure you're aware, but not being able to drive still allows you to walk, ride a pushbike, take the bus, train, taxi, or get a lift from someone else.

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Saturday 6th December 17:40

You evidently didn't notice the "for a great many people" bit.

No, I saw that bit. You're deluded. Losing your licence isn't like prison, not for anyone.

[XJ Flyer]

Dammit said:

Would it be a bad thing, getting points on your UK licence for breaking the law in Forrin, and vice versa?

It would seem to be an advantage of the EU that dangerously poor drivers could be banned more efficiently by bringing their transgressions abroad back home with them.

That would obviously be the view of the type of nazis that are trying to impose that idea across the EU.

The issue being that exceeding the Scottish drink drive limit isn't 'dangerous'.Just as exceeding the French autoroute limit is no more 'dangerous' than running at the same but 'legal' speeds in Germany.Which is what the argument and UK agenda is all about.

[Dammit]

Compare and contrast:

[Dammit]

XJ Flyer said:

That would obviously be the view of the type of nazis that are trying to impose that idea across the EU.

The issue being that exceeding the Scottish drink drive limit isn't 'dangerous'.Just as exceeding the French autoroute limit is no more 'dangerous' than running at the same but 'legal' speeds in Germany.Which is what the argument and UK agenda is all about.

Ah, ok - I didn't realise that one of the central tenets of the Nazi party was that one should obey the relevant laws in the place you happened to be.

Thanks for clearing that up - I didn't realise that childish self interest was in fact anti-Nazi, it makes it much more palatable to think of it that way.

[XJ Flyer]

TooMany2cvs said:

XJ Flyer said:

If it was a 'UK' law it would apply throughout the UK

(for the third time)
The applicable law is the Road Traffic Act 1988, section 5. That applies - UNLIKE OTHER PARTS OF RTA88 - to England, Wales, Scotland and NI. RTA88s5 will STILL apply. The wording won't change. The ONLY difference is in the "prescribed limit" applicable.

How about instead of Scotland, the limit was being reduced to 50 for HGV and PSV drivers...? If somebody was stopped driving an HGV whilst between 50 and 80, they'd lose their licence. And that licence loss would apply to ALL classes of vehicle, right...?

In this case the analogy would be a 'Scottish' only specific HGV NSL of 30 mph on single carriageways and 40 mph on motorways.Then points and bans imposed on foreign driving licences for exceeding those limits.Basically it is just a case of setting a federal law type precedent to further the UK's position on an EU licence penalty regime aganda.

[XJ Flyer]

Dammit said:

XJ Flyer said:

That would obviously be the view of the type of nazis that are trying to impose that idea across the EU.

The issue being that exceeding the Scottish drink drive limit isn't 'dangerous'.Just as exceeding the French autoroute limit is no more 'dangerous' than running at the same but 'legal' speeds in Germany.Which is what the argument and UK agenda is all about.

Ah, ok - I didn't realise that one of the central tenets of the Nazi party was that one should obey the relevant laws in the place you happened to be.

Thanks for clearing that up - I didn't realise that childish self interest was in fact anti-Nazi, it makes it much more palatable to think of it that way.

The argument has nothing to do with obeying the laws of the place we happen to be in.In this case it is an obvious Trojan Horse to change the accepted existing 'penalty regime' regarding those laws to suit the UK's position v that of Gernmany's as that argument applies to an EU wide penalty regime.If that isn't the case then why not either keep the Scottish drink drive limit as it was in line with the UK one or reduce the UK one to match the Scottish one thereby removing any possible precedents in regards to that UK v Germany EU penalty issue.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Dammit said:

Compare and contrast:

No doubt Phatboy317 will be along soon to tell us that only the super rich can go walking in the countryside. And for anyone else, a driving ban is little more than state imposed agoraphobia.

[Dammit]

Does the Scottish regulatory body have the power to impose a UK wide reduction?

Could it be that they are convinced that it will lead to fewer KSI's, and therefore that to not introduce it would be irresponsible, and therefore did so, even though it would lead to an imbalance in permitted levels of blood alcohol between Scotland and England?

OR, are you right and it's one big conspiracy to give you points on your licence for speeding in Bremen?