Scottish Drink Drving Chages
Discussion
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Nigel Worc's said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Nigel Worc's said:
I wasn't aware there were different levels of theft between England & Scotland.
I wasn't aware there were different levels of exceeding the drink drive limit in England & Scotland. You either exceed the prevailing limit, or you don't.You can now be over the limit in Scotland and be banned from driving here, when you'd be perfectly legal here, so shouldn't be banned here (in my opinion).
That is the crux of my arguement, Scotland should not have the power to ban anyone from driving in England & Wales, where the driver was at a level to be legal in England & Wales.
With my prescription scenario, you could be forced to do community service in Scotland for stealing something in England that would have been free in Scotland so wouldn't have been theft.
Using your own flawed theory, England should not have the power to punish someone in Scotland for a crime that wouldn't have been a crime in Scotland.
Our government have caused this by allowing it to happen.
If I'm so wrong why have BV and agtlaw said they would expect any ban to be overturned on appeal to an English court ?
If the laws are as out of step as this one now is, and for no good reason other than they now can, why should they continue to have authority outside of their own area/region ?
TooMany2cvs said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
Poor analogy, it is not about the prescription, it is about theft.
...in a situation that, the other side of the regional border, would not be illegal.Corpulent Tosser said:
Lets be clear, drink driving is legal in both countries, it is the level of alcohol allowed that differs.
"Drink-driving" is usually taken to refer to RTA88 s5 offences of driving with alcohol above the prescribed limit, so is illegal in both regions of the country.So this whole argument is about a situation that, the other side of the regional border, would not be illegal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compac...
XJ Flyer said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
Poor analogy, it is not about the prescription, it is about theft.
...in a situation that, the other side of the regional border, would not be illegal.Corpulent Tosser said:
Lets be clear, drink driving is legal in both countries, it is the level of alcohol allowed that differs.
"Drink-driving" is usually taken to refer to RTA88 s5 offences of driving with alcohol above the prescribed limit, so is illegal in both regions of the country.So this whole argument is about a situation that, the other side of the regional border, would not be illegal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compac...
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Devil2575 said:
This whole thread reads very much like looking for something to get worked up about.
Agreed.When this was announced, I never gave it a second though. Scotland can set whatever limit they choose to under their devolved powers, and of course a ban would be UK wide for breaking their limit. It never occurred to me it would or should be any other way, and I don't know why anyone would give a hoot.
However I do have 'issues' with the 'precedents' and 'principles' set,by the contradictions in applying federal penalties in regards to different,often unreasonable,foreign/Confederal state laws which are then applied indiscriminately across borders.
As I've said in this case the logical conclusion of which 'would/could' be loss of a UK licence for a French etc speeding offence.
All based on a similar principle as penalties/extradition being applied here for a Gulf state drinking offence against sharia law.
I said challenge, but didn't express a view as to whether that challenge would be successful.
I haven't fully researched it but it would appear that there is no provision equivalent to section 59 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 to appeal a Scottish ban in England. Section 59 applies to "foreign" disqualifications - it's expressly mentioned in the 2003 Act that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. There are further provisions about Northern Ireland - which is not part of Great Britain but part of the UK.
There are other avenues of attack of course.
I haven't fully researched it but it would appear that there is no provision equivalent to section 59 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 to appeal a Scottish ban in England. Section 59 applies to "foreign" disqualifications - it's expressly mentioned in the 2003 Act that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. There are further provisions about Northern Ireland - which is not part of Great Britain but part of the UK.
There are other avenues of attack of course.
agtlaw said:
I said challenge, but didn't express a view as to whether that challenge would be successful.
I haven't fully researched it but it would appear that there is no provision equivalent to section 59 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 to appeal a Scottish ban in England. Section 59 applies to "foreign" disqualifications - it's expressly mentioned in the 2003 Act that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. There are further provisions about Northern Ireland - which is not part of Great Britain but part of the UK.
There are other avenues of attack of course.
A 'UK' government directive stopping the unilateral/confederal Scottish change in the 'UK' drink drive limit would seem the most sensible option in that regard considering the 'UK' federal licence penalty system.Assuming the UK government 'wanted' to challenge it.The glaring question in this case being how did the Scottish manage to push through the such a change to start with without UK government objection 'if' the UK government considers the UK limit as being ok for decades since its introduction.IE I think the biggest question is the motives of the UK government in this case not the issue of the Scottish government action.I haven't fully researched it but it would appear that there is no provision equivalent to section 59 of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 to appeal a Scottish ban in England. Section 59 applies to "foreign" disqualifications - it's expressly mentioned in the 2003 Act that Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. There are further provisions about Northern Ireland - which is not part of Great Britain but part of the UK.
There are other avenues of attack of course.
agtlaw said:
The UK government allowed it. From memory, section 20(?) of the Scotland Act 2012.
Put that together with the 'stated' UK government aim ( at that time ) of a federal EU licence penalty system might just be the smoking gun which I referred to.IE trying to set a US type precedent of Confederal traffic regulations with a Federal licence penalty system. Nigel Worc's said:
ch108 said:
Nigel Worc's said:
So the jocks are out of step again ?
Is this going to become a pattern ?
At least we are putting the limit up not down.
If they want separate driving rules, then they should only have jurisdiction over the roads they control, simple as that.
Us Scots will have jurisdiction over the roads we control. But if you choose to drive on Scottish roads you will be subject to Scottish drink drive limits. How hard is that to grasp?Is this going to become a pattern ?
At least we are putting the limit up not down.
If they want separate driving rules, then they should only have jurisdiction over the roads they control, simple as that.
It doesn't sound if you will visit much anyway as you obviously hate the place by referring to us as Jocks and in your later post saying we can fook off back to our own kingdom. Totally uncalled for IMO on a thread that is merely about a drink drive limit. I don't really care what you think about Scotland but can you kindly keep inflammatory comments to yourself?
The new drink drive limit has been well publicised. How hard would it be if you did drive up here just not to have a pint when driving?
s off you touchy bd, half of my family are Scots, and I'm up there at least half a dozen times a year.You can do what you want up there, I wish you'd gone independent, what I don't like is you lot being able to ban the rest of us from our roads, just because you want a lower drink drive limit.
By all means ban us from your roads, but if you want to be different, then stick to your own side of the border.
Is that hard to understand ?
We aren't banning you from the roads. What's so hard to understand if you drink and drive on Scottish roads you are subject to Scottish law? Scotland which is part of the UK. Is it that hard to refrain from having a pint while driving in Scotland?
Anyway fed up going round in circles on this now.
Devil2575 said:
You leave home in the UK with between 50 and 80 mpg of alcohol in your blood and drive over the border where you're arrested for DD.
Why bring Northern Ireland into things?That is the only part of the UK where you can drive across a border to a foreign country with a different DD limit (RoI).
You are aware that England and the UK are not the same thing? Scotland is part of the UK.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Agreed.
When this was announced, I never gave it a second though. Scotland can set whatever limit they choose to under their devolved powers, and of course a ban would be UK wide for breaking their limit. It never occurred to me it would or should be any other way, and I don't know why anyone would give a hoot.
I didn't realise you were quite so uncomfortable with ordinary people discussing issues, or - horrors of horrors - questioning authority.When this was announced, I never gave it a second though. Scotland can set whatever limit they choose to under their devolved powers, and of course a ban would be UK wide for breaking their limit. It never occurred to me it would or should be any other way, and I don't know why anyone would give a hoot.
Phatboy317 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Agreed.
When this was announced, I never gave it a second though. Scotland can set whatever limit they choose to under their devolved powers, and of course a ban would be UK wide for breaking their limit. It never occurred to me it would or should be any other way, and I don't know why anyone would give a hoot.
I didn't realise you were quite so uncomfortable with ordinary people discussing issues, or - horrors of horrors - questioning authority.When this was announced, I never gave it a second though. Scotland can set whatever limit they choose to under their devolved powers, and of course a ban would be UK wide for breaking their limit. It never occurred to me it would or should be any other way, and I don't know why anyone would give a hoot.
In this case either Scotland needs to be brought back into line with UK traffic regulations,or the English driving licence penalty system needs to be seperated to match the seperation of the laws.Obviously from an anti federalist point of view the latter being preferable.
The question in this case being why would the UK see any advantage in such a situation of seperate ( sovereign/confederal ) traffic laws,mixed with a system of federal penalties.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 9th December 20:28
douglasb said:
That is the only part of the UK where you can drive across a border to a foreign country with a different DD limit (RoI).
Apart from the subtle detail that it's very easy to drive onto a train or boat and off again into such a different jurisdiction - once you do, driving across borders into jurisdictions with different drink-drive limits is fairly common.Phatboy317 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Agreed.
When this was announced, I never gave it a second though. Scotland can set whatever limit they choose to under their devolved powers, and of course a ban would be UK wide for breaking their limit. It never occurred to me it would or should be any other way, and I don't know why anyone would give a hoot.
I didn't realise you were quite so uncomfortable with ordinary people discussing issues, or - horrors of horrors - questioning authority.When this was announced, I never gave it a second though. Scotland can set whatever limit they choose to under their devolved powers, and of course a ban would be UK wide for breaking their limit. It never occurred to me it would or should be any other way, and I don't know why anyone would give a hoot.
Some of the tripe that's been spouted on this thread, like a driving ban being effectively a jail sentence, is just mindbogglingly daft.
TooMany2cvs said:
douglasb said:
That is the only part of the UK where you can drive across a border to a foreign country with a different DD limit (RoI).
Apart from the subtle detail that it's very easy to drive onto a train or boat and off again into such a different jurisdiction - once you do, driving across borders into jurisdictions with different drink-drive limits is fairly common.Dammit said:
If you fly to Thailand for a two week break comprising mainly of having sex with minors should this bit of sexual tourism be unpunishable when you are back in the UK?
If you fly to the Gulf states and break sharia law by drinking should that be punishable/extradictable if/when you get back to the UK.TooMany2cvs said:
Apart from the subtle detail that it's very easy to drive onto a train or boat and off again into such a different jurisdiction - once you do, driving across borders into jurisdictions with different drink-drive limits is fairly common.
It's usually pretty obvious if you have driven on to a ferry or train. It may not be so obvious if you've just driven across a border. 
If convicted and banned for being over the (lower) Irish Republic limit the Irish ban is valid in the UK.
Anyway, my point was more that Devil2575 seemed to think that driving into Scotland involved driving out of the UK.
douglasb said:
It may not be so obvious if you've just driven across a border.
Not between Shengen countries that may well have different DD limits/penalties.douglasb said:
If convicted and banned for being over the (lower) Irish Republic limit the Irish ban is valid in the UK.
Because of exactly the kind of international reciprocity that some here are very glad doesn't apply between other EU countries and the UK. Sometimes, I think that some people don't realise Ireland is not part of the UK, but just another EU country, just like France or Spain or Romania - just one that we happen to have a few more (mainly historical) treaties with.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff