Hare-brained safety 'improvement' scheme results in tragedy

[V8 Fettler]

Swervin_Mervin said:

I blame the Romans. I mean, they should have done their calculations properly and realised that in 2000 years we were obviously going to need 4 lane highways everywhere.

Typical Roman road was built to accommodate 6 soldiers shoulder to shoulder = 3 lanes in either direction. That's a good start.

[rs1952]

V8 Fettler said:

Putting up with incompetent service from unaccountable LAs is all part of a taxpayer's existence.

OK, I'll bite.

But firstly with the understanding that I am not a highway engineer and, although I have been known to work for a local council, I haven't done so since 1995 - best part of half a working life ago.

V8 fettler said:

I base my accusation re: design team incompetence with reference to the M25 on 30 years or so of trundling around said orbital and observing the endless widening projects and resultant jams.

Somebody has already pointed out on this thread that NIMBYism was in full swing when the M25 was at the proposal stage. They were arguing that the road was unnecessary, and if the plans being put out to consulatation had shown a 4-lane road right the way around it would never have got built at all.

That's not incompetence, old chum, that's politics. Do what you can when you can, and bring the great unwashed slowly along with you. Because, if you don't, that "unaccountable" council would be have been out on its ear at the next election because the NIMBYs would have supported all the ant-M25 candidates in that election.

We've got exactly the same thing at the western end of the M25 at the moment at Heathrow. Everybody with more than half a brain accepts that we need extra aviation capacity in the south east, and the best and cheapest place to put that extra capacity is at Heathrow. But the politicians are running scared of the NIMBYs again, the same as they always do, because if they don't then once again they'll get thrown out at the next election.

You apparently have a different definition of the word "accountability" than the one in the dictionary.

Further, judging by the content of your posts on this thread, you seem to be using the word "incompetence" when what you really mean is "not agreeing with me." If the tone of your contact with LAs is anything like that of your posts on this topic, I'd put money on their waste bins being full of your letters

[Dammit]

This is quite interesting - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Shows that in 1950 there were ~4 million cars on the roads of the UK, but 2010 we had added over 30 million to that figure.

We seem to be still stuck in a very reactive mode to this constant increase - the widening schemes that V8 Fettler keeps banging on about.

Leaving aside for one second whether or not creating more road capacity is the right thing to do, how the designers of 50 years ago could be expected to know that the number of cars they were designing for was actually five times greater than were currently in use.

[anonymous-user]

V8 Fettler said:

I base my accusation re: design team incompetence with reference to the M25 on 30 years or so of trundling around said orbital and observing the endless widening projects and resultant jams. Also far too many miles on the M11 (ridiculous junction at the Norf Circular) and the A14 (2 lanes and no hard shoulder for the major route into Felixstowe). Let me know if you want any more examples of design incompetence.

What language do you find so offensive? Is it my gratuitous use of the word "accountability"? Or perhaps the disgraceful phrase "get it right first time"? Or maybe even the concept of competency alarms you?

It may distress you to realise that - ultimately - I am your customer. No tax money from me = no highways dept. I would guess that you've been in your position at highways for several decades.

Here you go Sweetie https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/route-b...
Have a read then make sure you are consulted for the next set in 5 years, You can tell them where it's all going wrong and no need for all this consultation and evidence as you have all the required knowledge to hand after thinking about it over a pint.

There's a report on the M25 just for you too read

[V8 Fettler]

rs1952 said:

V8 Fettler said:

Putting up with incompetent service from unaccountable LAs is all part of a taxpayer's existence.

OK, I'll bite.

But firstly with the understanding that I am not a highway engineer and, although I have been known to work for a local council, I haven't done so since 1995 - best part of half a working life ago.

V8 fettler said:

I base my accusation re: design team incompetence with reference to the M25 on 30 years or so of trundling around said orbital and observing the endless widening projects and resultant jams.

Somebody has already pointed out on this thread that NIMBYism was in full swing when the M25 was at the proposal stage. They were arguing that the road was unnecessary, and if the plans being put out to consulatation had shown a 4-lane road right the way around it would never have got built at all.

That's not incompetence, old chum, that's politics. Do what you can when you can, and bring the great unwashed slowly along with you. Because, if you don't, that "unaccountable" council would be have been out on its ear at the next election because the NIMBYs would have supported all the ant-M25 candidates in that election.

We've got exactly the same thing at the western end of the M25 at the moment at Heathrow. Everybody with more than half a brain accepts that we need extra aviation capacity in the south east, and the best and cheapest place to put that extra capacity is at Heathrow. But the politicians are running scared of the NIMBYs again, the same as they always do, because if they don't then once again they'll get thrown out at the next election.

You apparently have a different definition of the word "accountability" than the one in the dictionary.

Further, judging by the content of your posts on this thread, you seem to be using the word "incompetence" when what you really mean is "not agreeing with me." If the tone of your contact with LAs is anything like that of your posts on this topic, I'd put money on their waste bins being full of your letters

NIMBYS had very little power in the mid-1970s, but they offered a convenient excuse for the bean counters to cut short term costs at the expense of substantial medium term costs to add extra lanes. The change of colour for a couple of local councils was never going to stop the M25, it's too important on a national scale, that's politics. 3 lane or 4 lane, the variation to the impact on the environment during construction is minimal, the real environmental impact is the subsequent jams caused by insufficient capacity.

Accountability in this context means to to take responsibility and to recognise/address errors; the inability to get it right first time is a major error that haunts UK road construction.

I'm not concerned if road planners do not agree with me, I just want them to get it right first time when they are spending my money. If they don't get it right first time, is that not incompetence?

What "tone" causes you so much angst? Do you mean where I get straight to the point?

[V8 Fettler]

Dammit said:

This is quite interesting - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

Shows that in 1950 there were ~4 million cars on the roads of the UK, but 2010 we had added over 30 million to that figure.

We seem to be still stuck in a very reactive mode to this constant increase - the widening schemes that V8 Fettler keeps banging on about.

Leaving aside for one second whether or not creating more road capacity is the right thing to do, how the designers of 50 years ago could be expected to know that the number of cars they were designing for was actually five times greater than were currently in use.

The ability to forecast future demand is all part of good design. M1 and M4 were 3 lane at concept, the primary roads comprising Spaghetti Junction were 4 lane at concept, but short term value engineering struck (again!) at the expense of decades of future cost and jams.

For comparison, consider the power generation sector where the planning teams get it right first time, every time. I can't recall when there was last a major power outage in the UK due to demand exceeding supply (bar miner's strikes). Well done to the planning teams. Unfortunatley, this happy state of affairs is becoming increasing perilous due to the meddlers and their current obsession with windmills and similar.

[V8 Fettler]

speedyguy said:

Here you go Sweetie https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/route-b...
Have a read then make sure you are consulted for the next set in 5 years, You can tell them where it's all going wrong and no need for all this consultation and evidence as you have all the required knowledge to hand after thinking about it over a pint.

There's a report on the M25 just for you too read

Thanks, I've had a skim through the Felixstowe/Midlands report, couldn't find the executive summary that should follow the introduction (why do so many report writers miss the key point that someone else might want to read the report?).

In many ways, I don't necessarily want to be consulted about future major road development more than - say - 10 miles from my mansion; I'd much prefer that the planning teams got it right first time, because that's what I pay them to do. As a comparison, I've never been consulted on power station construction but the capacity of UK power stations seems to have been adequate to date, although I would like some warning if the next Drax was proposed for my back garden.

[Type R Tom]

Tell me, which date should roads designed decades ago have aim for? 2010, 2020, 2030 and so on because if the trend continues despite the number of lanes constructed then they will all, at some point, hit capacity (short of major technology like driverless cars). Or is it by 2030 you might be dead or not driving so don't care?

By your logic, in 2030 when the roads are full they “weren’t built right first time”, I assume the same applies to all major infrastructure?

[walm]

V8 - the M25 is 6 lanes wide around Heathrow-M3 and is still a glorious jam much of the time.
Your 4 lane solution is empirically bks.
Give up.

[singlecoil]

I'm firmly of the opinion that V8Fettler is not open to persuasion on this subject.

[V8 Fettler]

Type R Tom said:

Tell me, which date should roads designed decades ago have aim for? 2010, 2020, 2030 and so on because if the trend continues despite the number of lanes constructed then they will all, at some point, hit capacity (short of major technology like driverless cars). Or is it by 2030 you might be dead or not driving so don't care?

By your logic, in 2030 when the roads are full they “weren’t built right first time”, I assume the same applies to all major infrastructure?

Which date? Do you mean design life with regards to capacity? I would assume that it would depend on the specification. Which probably doesn't help!

Perhaps take a cue from the concept calcs for the M1, M4 and Spaghetti junction, they got it right for 40 years or so, but the meddlers value engineered and that was that.

[V8 Fettler]

walm said:

V8 - the M25 is 6 lanes wide around Heathrow-M3 and is still a glorious jam much of the time.
Your 4 lane solution is empirically bks.
Give up.

M25 15 to 12 is indeed a mess, 2 lanes being nothing more than extended slips, used in part by the local NIMBYS for local journeys. So that's about 25 miles.

In my view, the addition of extra lanes over the last 15 years or so has finally yielded improvements. The northern section is now free of roadworks from the M1 to Dartford, the historical strangle points at the M1, A1, M11 and A12 have been eased, also Holmesdale and Bell Common are much improved. The original 4 lane concept would have offered this capacity from day 1.

Dartford crossing is still shambolic, as is the wrong 'un junction (A21?), inclines rather than cuttings are probably insurmountable without completely closing the road (so thanks to the original design team for leaving that legacy), but perhaps things have generally improved saarf of the River? I've generally avoided saaarf for a couple of years.

Give up? Give up what?

[Dammit]

Say, just for a second, that in 1950, with 4 million cars on the road the designers "just knew" that they actually needed to design the roads for ~40 million cars (hello 2015).

So they built it to have (say) 5 lanes in each direction.

But wait! That's not taking into account the growth rate that we've planned for - or rather it's only planning for the next 60 years.

If we follow the V8 Fettler school of "they should plan for the [unspecified date in the] future", then what should we plan for- the next 100 years?

Which would bring us to 2050, and 80 million cars on the roads.

So should they have put in 10 lanes in either direction, back in 1950?

15, maybe? Planning for the rest of the century.

[V8 Fettler]

Design for 40 years

[Dammit]

Why?

[Dammit]

^Not trolling, serious question - it would be total insanity to try to build out a road network today that was meant to take into account vehicle types and numbers for 2055, I would suggest, as we have no idea whether the privately owned car will even really exist at that point.

[V8 Fettler]

Dammit said:

Why?

See above

[V8 Fettler]

Dammit said:

^Not trolling, serious question - it would be total insanity to try to build out a road network today that was meant to take into account vehicle types and numbers for 2055, I would suggest, as we have no idea whether the privately owned car will even really exist at that point.

So what would you design then?

[singlecoil]

Dammit said:

Why?

My guess is that's past the point at which he expects to have to give up driving.

[anonymous-user]

singlecoil said:

Dammit said:

Why?

My guess is that's past the point at which he expects to have to give up driving.

Tech is changing so fast they don't know what we need yet. As mentioned elsewhere they are looking at things like "static electric vehicle charging" http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2014/apr/onroad-charg... now things will probably be completely different again in 40 years just look at trucks etc, we still have bridges not engineered to carry 44T trucks all over the place.

TBH i can see Fettlers point as the Romans could have planned ahead and installed electric inductive loops when they built their roads the muppets