Blackmail - what do you do?

[h0b0]

What is it they should have done and is it possible to do it now and get the full benefit of your product?

I deal with these situations on a daily basis but fortunately in the business world. (I hate going into education because they do not know how to deal with business and it always ends up in a world of BS). When I deal with this I typically already have the senior manager on board anyway so the person complaining is just making a fool of themselves. I have very little sympathy for this though because the person complaining is screaming "I am fking st at my job and I am going to cost you money". In my world, reputation/perception is everything and this could cost a lot of money. I have it shot down immediately and, even though it is not my intention, have seen several people lose their jobs over it.

If I do not know the senior manager well I will involve them, or purchasing, or I will have legal make a call. I assume that you are smaller so do not have a specific legal group but still making the call to purchasing, or whomever will be supplying the PO, is a good start. If they have accepted your terms then do you have a signed copy or is it written that by letting you on site they are accepting? If so then they will be paying and by going through purchasing there will be minimal fuss.

[Sump]

Sounds like you are one of those companies that does something most people wouldn't expect but hide behind 4 pages of T&Cs, most people pay up and move on.

What's more so is most people are happy to discuss the issue and your work together to fix the issue, that's what customer service is but from his email, it looks like you have done something extremely unreasonable and you hide behind your 4 pages to justify it.

That's what it comes across to me as.

Then again, you do get some right nutter customers.

[JustinP1]

Sump said:

Sounds like you are one of those companies that does something most people wouldn't expect but hide behind 4 pages of T&Cs, most people pay up and move on.

What's more so is most people are happy to discuss the issue and your work together to fix the issue, that's what customer service is but from his email, it looks like you have done something extremely unreasonable and you hide behind your 4 pages to justify it.

That's what it comes across to me as.

Then again, you do get some right nutter customers.

You'd be forgiven for thinking that, but after having studying law as part of my business degree at uni is a great bugbear of mine to supply pages of 'small print' T&Cs. So we don't. There's no waffle, no legal terms at all. Nothing an 11 year old could not read and correctly comprehend back to you.

When I refer to our 'terms', it is 4 pages of 11 point text set out in easy to read paragraphs with headings like:

"What does the service include?" "How much does it cost?" and 2-4 sentences below. I go with the ethos that the more simple things can be set out, and important terms can be set out as plain english, they are more likely to be complied with so you don't have to enforce them as much! We are talking about 100 words a page time four - something that can be digested in 5 minutes.

The only way that the person could have got everything so wrong is if they didn't read the short email we sent explaining how we work, and that concept can be explained in a sentence and this is the *first sentence* of our terms. In any case, when we take bookings, we confirm them in writing, and directly request that the client reads in terms again to ensure their project runs smoothly.

The issue here is not a trivial breach of small print, it is that they simply couldn't have read even the first lines of anything we sent. Or, they messed up and want someone to blame.

Edited by JustinP1 on Wednesday 26th November 16:50

[Cyberprog]

JustinP1 said:

I should add that previously when such a thing has been put to us, it's been on the phone and my tact has been to let them rant on the before repeating what they have implied back and they realise how unreasonable they've been and how unacceptable the demand is.

On this occasion, for the first time, it's in an email.

You should consider getting a call recording system in place on your phone system. On a few I've seen, you can press a few buttons on your phone and it flags the call as to be recorded from the start.

[anonymous-user]

The problem with that is that you are supposed to tell people that they are being recorded, as otherwise you can get into a legal pinch.

[talksthetorque]

I'm thinking the reason that you haven't had a response for a week is the person you are dealing with is now stting themselves and "off work with stress".

Edited by talksthetorque on Wednesday 26th November 21:12

[Cyberprog]

Breadvan72 said:

The problem with that is that you are supposed to tell people that they are being recorded, as otherwise you can get into a legal pinch.

Chuck it onto the system as they call in, simple enough to do, everyone hears it these days when you deal with big companies...

And even if you can't use it legally, you can play it back for their head of compliance/governers...

[anonymous-user]

Yes, but the punter is less likely to blurt if he knows he is on tape.

[EV11NED]

If this is an educational establishment, is it an academy? Seen a few of these that converted from local authorities where the heads go power crazy post conversion as they think they have loads of power. They don't, of course, as there is still a governing body for them to answer to and there might also be a sponsor who oversees them.

If you've still not had a reply, you can ask for a copy of their organisation chart, and their anti-bribery policy, as this will tell you where this individual sits in the structure. If they are this sort of organisation it should actually be on their website already.

[sim72]

EV11NED said:

If this is an educational establishment, is it an academy? Seen a few of these that converted from local authorities where the heads go power crazy post conversion as they think they have loads of power. They don't, of course, as there is still a governing body for them to answer to and there might also be a sponsor who oversees them.

The heads of sponsored academies are not answerable to their governing bodies (if they have one), only to their sponsors. The heads of converter academies and maintained schools, however, are.

EV11NED said:

If you've still not had a reply, you can ask for a copy of their organisation chart, and their anti-bribery policy, as this will tell you where this individual sits in the structure. If they are this sort of organisation it should actually be on their website already.

Neither of these things are required to be on the website of either an academy or maintained school. If it is a maintained school or a converter Academy, the Head of Governors is the next port of call (their details will be on the website), and if it is a sponsored Academy, there should be details of the sponsors there.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Breadvan72 said:

Yes, but the punter is less likely to blurt if he knows he is on tape.

Problem solved?

[silentbrown]

Silly question, probably : Have they complained about your service, or your T's & C's in any way? Have they given *any* reason why they won't pay?

And - to add a different view - I think they're free to *truthfully* describe their experience with your company to anyone they like, unless you have a 'Blackpool hotel' clause in your terms somewhere.

Edited by silentbrown on Wednesday 26th November 23:07

[JustinP1]

silentbrown said:

Silly question, probably : Have they complained about your service, or your T's & C's in any way? Have they given *any* reason why they won't pay?

And - to add a different view - I think they're free to *truthfully* describe their experience with your company to anyone they like, unless you have a 'Blackpool hotel' clause in your terms somewhere.

Edited by silentbrown on Wednesday 26th November 23:07

They've said they didn't receive the terms. So, I showed them where they did, by email, and how they replied back to it with our email and the terms in question actually sent back as our email. Not once, but three separate instances of explaining the fact in question.

They've gone through the terms with a fine tooth comb and picked out the fact that we state we have 15 year experience in working with the sector, and thus they critique that we should have helped them more. So, I've showed them where exactly in an email we've explained what we offer in a few sentences they didn't read, how this is repeated in all of the three documents we provided, and how we asked them to read them thoroughly, whilst being on hand for free, unlimited telephone and email support.

They've picked out 'they haven't signed anything'. I haven't even risen to this one...! We've supplied written terms, and there's written acceptance, and of course we've done the work. On their request, we'd even supplied work ahead of schedule they had no problem with.


This really is a case of "I'm fked... how do I get out of this...' If they've spent 10% of the time they spent reading the instructions in the last week in the hope of finding a loophole actually finding out the fundamentals of what they were committing to do before the project, it would have been a success. As I've mentioned, we write really simple instructions and terms and work with 100 plus clients a year. I can't remember someone getting things this wrong, and it could only have occurred through being grossly negligent and simply not reading the first things we've written.

That's the truth of their experience. However, I'm sure that is not what they are implying would be the content of their public critique!

Don't get me wrong, I have a 100% client satisfaction policy. For example, just today a client found a mistake in copy they sent to us, after we'd printed and delivered the bespoke items. We remade it and delivered it in 48 hours without charge to them.

We bend over backwards. However, on this occasion, the client has no genuine issue - even the weak and false ones they brought up wasn't on receipt of goods - it was only when the discussion turned to payment.

I've asked them for how they'd ideally like to proceed - and not even that is deemed worthy of a response. They are intentionally leaving the situation with us completing the work, and us being forced to 'break the ice' and ask for payment and thus incur their wrath of defamation.

My line is drawn on the issue of extortion on the threat of defamation - hence my post.

Edited by JustinP1 on Wednesday 26th November 23:46

Edited by JustinP1 on Wednesday 26th November 23:48

[JustinP1]

Cyberprog said:

Breadvan72 said:

The problem with that is that you are supposed to tell people that they are being recorded, as otherwise you can get into a legal pinch.

Chuck it onto the system as they call in, simple enough to do, everyone hears it these days when you deal with big companies...

And even if you can't use it legally, you can play it back for their head of compliance/governers...

Just to follow up, we do record calls as a matter of course.

Whilst we confirm anything contractual in writing, we do discuss aspects of what we offer on the telephone pre-contract, and sometimes the acceptance takes place orally after the prior supply of written terms.

I took legal advice about this after a few incidents. We are only recording to evidence contract in the very few occasions it is brought into doubt. Thus we are entitled to record calls, without the 'qualify and training purposes' warning.

We've had clients deny point blank things they've said previously. Also, if a client says "on the phone you told me X", if X was indeed said then whether it's wrong or not we can stand by it. So for the once a year or so it's needed it vastly outweighs the cost.

Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 27th November 00:20

[anonymous-user]

The legal advice you were given was negligently wrong. You are committing a criminal offence every time you secretly record a phone call.

See section 2 Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and the Telecommunications (Lawful Business Practice) (Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000.

[Black_S3]

Nothing I can add to the legal side of things or if my suggestion wouldn't be breaking the law itself, but is there any possibility of agreeing to meet them to discuss the work done, secretly record the whole thing while acting as dumb as is possible and seeing if you can fool them into thinking you are so retarded they have to spell out the threat again while on camera?


ETA - sorry if I'm stating the blindingly obvious here but I would imagine the scam here is refusing to pay you, then paying a company they/a relative own for the work you've done. Maybe worth some facebook sleuthing + a companies house check to see if you can find any correlation.

''The trick to dealing with motherfkers like these is not to try and get one step ahead but to be on the same step while they think you are one behind'' Best of luck.

Edited by Black_S3 on Thursday 27th November 06:43

[Tyre Tread]

Black_S3 said:

Nothing I can add to the legal side of things or if my suggestion wouldn't be breaking the law itself, but is there any possibility of agreeing to meet them to discuss the work done, secretly record the whole thing while acting as dumb as is possible and seeing if you can fool them into thinking you are so retarded they have to spell out the threat again while on camera?


ETA - sorry if I'm stating the blindingly obvious here but I would imagine the scam here is refusing to pay you, then paying a company they/a relative own for the work you've done. Maybe worth some facebook sleuthing + a companies house check to see if you can find any correlation.

''The trick to dealing with motherfkers like these is not to try and get one step ahead but to be on the same step while they think you are one behind'' Best of luck.

Edited by Black_S3 on Thursday 27th November 06:43

But its always a good thing in business negotiations to leave emotion at the door as much as possible.

I deal with this very often in my role and end up in Court in a minority of cases.

Some of those who feel they have been unfaitly treated will go onto bad mouth the business but often its after they have paid up whether or not with legal intervention.

I certainly would try and follow up the blackmail complaint route if this is professional organisations you are dealing with and reputation is important within the industry sector.

[Stevoox]

Can you not elevate this to someone more senior rather than dealing with the same moron? Provide them with all your supporting emails etc and just see what they have to say?

[littleredrooster]

The trouble with some of these 'academics' - and I've come across a few of them via my IT work - is that their life has gone School - College - University - School and never come into contact with the real world.

If your customer is something senior(ish) in the public sector, I would be tempted to suggest you write to your MP; he is duty bound to investigate a complaint against a Gov Dept. and will rattle the cage from a great height.

[don4l]

JustinP1 said:

<snip>

They've picked out 'they haven't signed anything'. I haven't even risen to this one...! We've supplied written terms, and there's written acceptance, and of course we've done the work. On their request, we'd even supplied work ahead of schedule they had no problem with.

<snip>

Have you done work without a signed purchase order?

This would be entirely unacceptable, in my view.