Blackmail - what do you do?
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
The legal advice you were given was negligently wrong. You are committing a criminal offence every time you secretly record a phone call.
See section 2 Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and the Telecommunications (Lawful Business Practice) (Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000.
I wouldn't normally question your advice on here but i suspect you are going well outside your area of expertise with this, The purpose of the recording and how it is used is key to determining if the caller must be informed, particularly when it's a business doing the recording.See section 2 Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 and the Telecommunications (Lawful Business Practice) (Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000.
See the 2 points on this ofcom guidance
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/consu...
Can a business or other organisation record or monitor my phone calls or e-mail correspondence with them?
and Do businesses have to tell me if they are going to record or monitor my phone calls or e-mails?
here
I know this is guidance not legislation, but i would like to see a very good reason why you would disagree with it.
Many calls these days in business are recorded not only at both ends but also in the middle, you notice one of the listed reason is "to secure the effective operation of the telecom system." This is one communication companies can and do make use of this to justify recording huge amounts of calls for technical reasons completely in secret, and it is perfectly legal so long as they are not shared with anyone outside the engineering staff (this is no tin foil hat stuff i've done work for telephone companies and seen what some of them are doing)
I must admit that up until last year recording calls was not something we did, not only due to the logistics, but due to the legal issues. I must also admit the advice was against my gut feeling due to always hearing 'your call may be monitored for quality and training purposes'.
However, I was also directed to Ofcom, and in reading the guidance the reason for the disclaimer is clear as 'training purposes' is not a legal reason to monitor a telephone call without consent. Then, it all made more sense. However, there are some specific reasons why you can, including evidence of transactions.
I should add that the system in place is that we have IP phones. The telecoms provider has a record of the times and telephone numbers in and out. We can download an audio file of the conversation. The only reason we would do so is for something which literally happens only once or twice a year, where a client wants to rely upon upon something in a telephone call that they deem to be contractual. In that situation, with their consent, we obtain the audio file.
I've just checked, in the hope I am not going mad, and our policy above as being in line with RIP is the same as a number of other companies, including Imperial College for example:
http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/secretariat/collegegove...
However, I was also directed to Ofcom, and in reading the guidance the reason for the disclaimer is clear as 'training purposes' is not a legal reason to monitor a telephone call without consent. Then, it all made more sense. However, there are some specific reasons why you can, including evidence of transactions.
I should add that the system in place is that we have IP phones. The telecoms provider has a record of the times and telephone numbers in and out. We can download an audio file of the conversation. The only reason we would do so is for something which literally happens only once or twice a year, where a client wants to rely upon upon something in a telephone call that they deem to be contractual. In that situation, with their consent, we obtain the audio file.
I've just checked, in the hope I am not going mad, and our policy above as being in line with RIP is the same as a number of other companies, including Imperial College for example:
http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/secretariat/collegegove...
Vaud said:
don4l said:
Have you done work without a signed purchase order?
This would be entirely unacceptable, in my view.
Lots of work happens and is approved to proceed without a PO with no legal issues occurring.This would be entirely unacceptable, in my view.
To give you an idea of the lengths we go to to ensure that the client can get the most from the project, no member of staff is allowed to book in a project without confirmation that our terms with a direct request for the client to read them is confirmed received not once, but twice. Once pre-contract, and once again within 24 hours of acceptance. No booking is allowed to take place whilst there is an open query which has not been answered to the client's satisfaction.
Bookings are only taken and confirmed with the unequivocal written request, and are confirmed received in writing.
To give you an idea of the standard of 'business' in the sector, before the widespread use of email, we had a written contract which was literally six sentences long, in 12 point Times text, that we would require signed by the head of the establishment. However, on more than one occasion, the reason for failure of the project was put forward as we should have 'understood' that the signatory would be too busy to read the contract they signed. I kid you not...
Edited by JustinP1 on Thursday 27th November 16:02
don4l said:
Have you done work without a signed purchase order?
This would be entirely unacceptable, in my view.
In my job an acceptance via email is a signed order, so is entirely acceptable. What isn't acceptable is failing to pay when invoices are sent out after agreement has been reachedThis would be entirely unacceptable, in my view.
Mutley said:
In my job an acceptance via email is a signed order, so is entirely acceptable. What isn't acceptable is failing to pay when invoices are sent out after agreement has been reached
Mine too (and I can authorise purchases) as apparently I am "deemed to be an acceptable approval authority" from a list we provide to our partners/suppliers.I do t think public sector bodies have "Heads of Compliance". They're not banks or law firms.
OP - if it's an Academy then approach the FD and explain what's happened. Headteachers can be power crazed little dictators but he/she might be able to make them see sense. If no luck then the Chair of Governors and Responsible Officer are the best people to speak to.
If it's a Local Authority school I'd write to their Head of Legal or go via MCOL.
OP - if it's an Academy then approach the FD and explain what's happened. Headteachers can be power crazed little dictators but he/she might be able to make them see sense. If no luck then the Chair of Governors and Responsible Officer are the best people to speak to.
If it's a Local Authority school I'd write to their Head of Legal or go via MCOL.
Mr Taxpayer said:
cymtriks said:
Tell him that unless he pays double you'll spread that email far and wide.
My issue is at this stage is when I contact the powers that be, as I will have to, what am I in a position to state about defamation, and blackmail?
Breadvan72 said:
You can say that you have received what is in effect a demand for a financial advantage with menaces, and that bad faith negative comments about you are threatened. Bear I mind that defamation requires proof of financial harm when the claimant is a business.
Cheers BV.I'm not going to go in all guns blazing, and to be frank in only going to bring it up to assist moving forward sensibly.
It is implied very strongly in the threat that financial harm will come, otherwise there would be no motivation for the threat. I appreciate what you say about the proof however.
It does seem that no action could be taken until after the act and effect. Is there anything I can do to draw a line in the sand before that point?
Here's some non-sausage related points: From a business perspective, £800 is annoying, but probably not the end of the world - either for you, or the customer. Don't let it get to you too badly.
Also, everybody -sometimes- bangs off an angry email without thinking it through. I've written a few total snorters and left them sitting in my 'drafts' box overnight - (inevitably I delete them and pick up the phone instead the following day, which usually has a much better outcome).
Maybe your customer has a hidden problem somewhere that he can't/won't tell you about. The situation to a Wedding Photographer struggling to get paid if the "happy couple" don't stay together beyond the honeymoon. Your work has been fine, but the "project" simply didn't go according to plan.
Personally I'd want the whole problem to go away, -regardless of the ill-advised threats- and would try carrot and stick together: Get in touch, offer payment terms/discount or similar. Make it clear that if you can't settle this amicably you WILL go legal to collect full payment. Don't bring up the topic of his threats unless they're repeated, at which point I'd remind him that you have them in writing and are "taking legal advice" on the issue. (well, you asked here, didn't you...)
Also, everybody -sometimes- bangs off an angry email without thinking it through. I've written a few total snorters and left them sitting in my 'drafts' box overnight - (inevitably I delete them and pick up the phone instead the following day, which usually has a much better outcome).
Maybe your customer has a hidden problem somewhere that he can't/won't tell you about. The situation to a Wedding Photographer struggling to get paid if the "happy couple" don't stay together beyond the honeymoon. Your work has been fine, but the "project" simply didn't go according to plan.
Personally I'd want the whole problem to go away, -regardless of the ill-advised threats- and would try carrot and stick together: Get in touch, offer payment terms/discount or similar. Make it clear that if you can't settle this amicably you WILL go legal to collect full payment. Don't bring up the topic of his threats unless they're repeated, at which point I'd remind him that you have them in writing and are "taking legal advice" on the issue. (well, you asked here, didn't you...)
silentbrown said:
Here's some non-sausage related points: From a business perspective, £800 is annoying, but probably not the end of the world - either for you, or the customer. Don't let it get to you too badly.
Also, everybody -sometimes- bangs off an angry email without thinking it through. I've written a few total snorters and left them sitting in my 'drafts' box overnight - (inevitably I delete them and pick up the phone instead the following day, which usually has a much better outcome).
Maybe your customer has a hidden problem somewhere that he can't/won't tell you about. The situation to a Wedding Photographer struggling to get paid if the "happy couple" don't stay together beyond the honeymoon. Your work has been fine, but the "project" simply didn't go according to plan.
Personally I'd want the whole problem to go away, -regardless of the ill-advised threats- and would try carrot and stick together: Get in touch, offer payment terms/discount or similar. Make it clear that if you can't settle this amicably you WILL go legal to collect full payment. Don't bring up the topic of his threats unless they're repeated, at which point I'd remind him that you have them in writing and are "taking legal advice" on the issue. (well, you asked here, didn't you...)
Cheers - you've seen to the crux of the problem.Also, everybody -sometimes- bangs off an angry email without thinking it through. I've written a few total snorters and left them sitting in my 'drafts' box overnight - (inevitably I delete them and pick up the phone instead the following day, which usually has a much better outcome).
Maybe your customer has a hidden problem somewhere that he can't/won't tell you about. The situation to a Wedding Photographer struggling to get paid if the "happy couple" don't stay together beyond the honeymoon. Your work has been fine, but the "project" simply didn't go according to plan.
Personally I'd want the whole problem to go away, -regardless of the ill-advised threats- and would try carrot and stick together: Get in touch, offer payment terms/discount or similar. Make it clear that if you can't settle this amicably you WILL go legal to collect full payment. Don't bring up the topic of his threats unless they're repeated, at which point I'd remind him that you have them in writing and are "taking legal advice" on the issue. (well, you asked here, didn't you...)
You are correct on all counts. There is a 'hidden problem', which is pretty much the elephant in the room.
Without being specific, we advise, and not only advise, make it a term that the whole of the organisation is involved in the project. That itself makes it a success, and more than covers the cost of our bill. We also make it a term that the financial side of the project is handled at their end in a particular way which again also ensures that as in organisation they actually profit from using our service.
The problem is that they've only involved 10% of the organisation - against our terms, and not even started on the financial side of the project - again against our terms. Both of these factors were explained in writing on three separate occasions. Out of 15 years and 1500 clients if this is not the most negligent client, they are in the top three.
So, the project is fundamentally flawed due to their piss-poor planning, and as this stage will never be a success. Of course, due to this, they'd very much like at this stage if they don't have to pay us! Indeed, if this is escalated, the buck will stop at the organiser as to why the project was so negligently managed and a financial cost. Hence the demand from the organiser to make things 'go away'.
The issue is that after putting forward the blackmail demand, I have now emailed twice, a week apart each time to make inroads to negotiation, even asking what we can do at this stage to assist their situation.
The person has not replied - hence it is pretty clear they are playing a game of 'chicken' with their blackmail demand. We are left with no other option than to escalate, but, if we do, the defamation consequences have been made explicit to us.
You are right. I also type emails in the heat of the moment, but as a matter of course, sleep on things and consider things properly. As such I thought I'd use the collective reasoning of PH to assist - so cheers!
Breadvan72 said:
Justin, did you see what I said about disclosure of phone recording? Your lawyers gave you a bum steer.
Yes - I did, and as always, thanks for your learned input!I must be honest I'm puzzled I did investigate thoroughly from what you've said as I was shocked as you'd imagine.
The same advice as was offered to me is actually given by other solicitors on their websites:
http://www.pearne.co.uk/?p=1658
"Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000...
Interception is allowed in either of these situations:
The business has reasonable grounds for believing that the customer has consented to the interception; or
The interception is authorised by the Lawful Business Regulations.
Telecommunications (Lawful Business Practice) (Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000
The Lawful Business Regulations provide that it is lawful to monitor and record calls *without consent* in the following circumstances:
To establish the existence of facts relevant to the business (for example, keeping a record of instructions given by telephone, where it is necessary or desirable to know what has been said during a conversation);
And also here: http://www.gannons.co.uk/blog/recording-and-monito...
"Recording Calls with Customers
Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 regulates the interception of phone calls that are sent by a private or public telephone. The key word here is “interception”; an interception takes place where the contents of the conversation are made available to a third party without it exiting the receiver. It therefore follows that holding a recording device (such as a microphone) to the receiver is not considered to be an interception.
Telephone calls from customers to call centres are usually recorded and are therefore interceptions. These are permitted under this legislation provided that: (i) the customer consents to the recording (usually after being notified by a recorded message) and the business has reasonable grounds for believing that the customer has consented (i.e. the customer has communicated its acceptance or implied acceptance by continuing with the call; and (ii) in the absence of consent, it is authorised by the Lawful Business Regulations (see below) .
Telecommunications (Lawful Business Practice) (Interception of Communications) Regulations 2000 (Lawful Business Regulations)
The monitoring and recording of calls under this regulation is only permitted, without consent, if it is solely for the purpose of monitoring or recording a communication which is “relevant to the business” and efforts have been made to notify every user.
Recording conversations:
Establishing facts relevant to the business i.e. where it is necessary to keep a record of the conversation;"
I've emboldened the important bits for anyone following and skimming...!
The specific situation I got advice upon was if I needed a specific disclaimer. In our case, calls are logged at the telecomms company. In the case of a genuine dispute, and with the client's consent we can get that audio file for us, and if necessary the client to listen to. In any case it is never made available to a third party.
I guess the act of 'interception' is actually requesting the telecoms company to create the file so we can listen to it, and we do that with consent.
According to both of these solicitors however, for the purposes I've mentioned, they suggest that prior consent would not be necessary anyway?
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 28th November 12:30
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 28th November 12:31
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