Blackmail - what do you do?
Discussion
loafer123 said:
Every financial institution habitually records calls to provide evidence of instructions and staff do not disclose beforehand.
The financial institution I work for record calls and it is definitely disclosed.On inbound calls, there's a little recorded spiel which states it (amongst other things) before you get to speak to a real human!
On outbound calls, the person calling out to a client has to state it (they have laminates with the wording) and anyone caught forgetting this gets a chat without coffee!
The only exception I'm aware of is where a client is called more than once in the same day: it's deemed okay to miss the wording on any outbound calls subsequent to the first.
The fact that calls are recorded is also stated in product literature and in the small print on letters.
Soov535 said:
JustinP1 said:
Interesting one here.
I won't go into too many specifics of this particular instance, but am very interested to hear the opinions of other business owners and legal bods.
My company works with mainly the public sector. We come and do a service on an agreed date, and send out our terms and pricing schedule in clear plain english, writing, and only book them once we have evidence that those terms have been received and we also make specific written reference asking them to thoroughly read them. It's no small print, simply a four page overview of the service, with explanations of what default payment and cancellations terms are etc.
However, the truism of 'leading a horse to water...' is always there, and once in a while we end up with a problem, as the client has not read the simple requirements properly, or clearly not at all. They might not get the full benefit, but we've of course still done the work, so they still have to pay, as per the terms.
Usually, before it gets to dispute, we can just outline where the thing that they apparently '...weren't aware of' was in the first paragraph of our terms, and in duplicate in other places, and they realise that it has been their fault.
However, a handful of times (out of 1500 clients and 15 years I might add) we've got this:
"I'm not paying you. And if you pursue this matter, I'm going to use my position in the body to tell X other bodies how bad your company is and never to use you."
To be clear, I'm talking about situations where the client is indisputably at fault, and there's no issue with our work. And to cover this up, they are effectively saying that unless we make a loss, and they receive the service for free, we are going to be defamed.
My reading of the Theft Act is this is blackmail. It's an unwarranted demand, which has gain for them, loss for us, and is backed up with menaces.
However, in the real world though, what can a company do when faced with such a situation?
In the first instance I always try to bend over backwards for clients, and of course avoid litigation like the plague. But in theory, should push come to shove, is this blackmail? And what can be done?
If they are public sector then there will be a Head of Compliance. They'll love to hear about this.I won't go into too many specifics of this particular instance, but am very interested to hear the opinions of other business owners and legal bods.
My company works with mainly the public sector. We come and do a service on an agreed date, and send out our terms and pricing schedule in clear plain english, writing, and only book them once we have evidence that those terms have been received and we also make specific written reference asking them to thoroughly read them. It's no small print, simply a four page overview of the service, with explanations of what default payment and cancellations terms are etc.
However, the truism of 'leading a horse to water...' is always there, and once in a while we end up with a problem, as the client has not read the simple requirements properly, or clearly not at all. They might not get the full benefit, but we've of course still done the work, so they still have to pay, as per the terms.
Usually, before it gets to dispute, we can just outline where the thing that they apparently '...weren't aware of' was in the first paragraph of our terms, and in duplicate in other places, and they realise that it has been their fault.
However, a handful of times (out of 1500 clients and 15 years I might add) we've got this:
"I'm not paying you. And if you pursue this matter, I'm going to use my position in the body to tell X other bodies how bad your company is and never to use you."
To be clear, I'm talking about situations where the client is indisputably at fault, and there's no issue with our work. And to cover this up, they are effectively saying that unless we make a loss, and they receive the service for free, we are going to be defamed.
My reading of the Theft Act is this is blackmail. It's an unwarranted demand, which has gain for them, loss for us, and is backed up with menaces.
However, in the real world though, what can a company do when faced with such a situation?
In the first instance I always try to bend over backwards for clients, and of course avoid litigation like the plague. But in theory, should push come to shove, is this blackmail? And what can be done?
-liked to give the impression he was a a 'proper ' ambulanceman despite being a lay manager in comms
- made it well know that he was a mason, a DL and JP and had a slew of other honorifics , all through greasing wheels
- used ' i work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
- like to make sure people knew he was a JP
- liked to bully subordinate managers into doing his dirty work with regard to his b
ks made up suspensions so he could investigate it - wanted all communication from the charity with external regulators to go through him and not through the relevant clinician manager...
- deliberartelty hobbled the charity's operations in a locality so his NHS ambulance bosses had free run at providing Emergency ambulances for crowd events ...
mph1977 said:
sounds like the kind of stunt that an senior NHS lay Manager of my unfortunate Acquaintance would pull, but he was a first order pillock regardless
-liked to give the impression he was a a 'proper ' ambulanceman despite being a lay manager in comms
- made it well know that he was a mason, a DL and JP and had a slew of other honorifics , all through greasing wheels
- used ' i work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
- like to make sure people knew he was a JP
- liked to bully subordinate managers into doing his dirty work with regard to his bks made up suspensions so he could investigate it
- wanted all communication from the charity with external regulators to go through him and not through the relevant clinician manager...
- deliberartelty hobbled the charity's operations in a locality so his NHS ambulance bosses had free run at providing Emergency ambulances for crowd events ...
Cool story, bro.-liked to give the impression he was a a 'proper ' ambulanceman despite being a lay manager in comms
- made it well know that he was a mason, a DL and JP and had a slew of other honorifics , all through greasing wheels
- used ' i work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
- like to make sure people knew he was a JP
- liked to bully subordinate managers into doing his dirty work with regard to his b
ks made up suspensions so he could investigate it - wanted all communication from the charity with external regulators to go through him and not through the relevant clinician manager...
- deliberartelty hobbled the charity's operations in a locality so his NHS ambulance bosses had free run at providing Emergency ambulances for crowd events ...
Osinjak said:
mph1977 said:
sounds like the kind of stunt that an senior NHS lay Manager of my unfortunate Acquaintance would pull, but he was a first order pillock regardless
-liked to give the impression he was a a 'proper ' ambulanceman despite being a lay manager in comms
- made it well know that he was a mason, a DL and JP and had a slew of other honorifics , all through greasing wheels
- used ' i work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
- like to make sure people knew he was a JP
- liked to bully subordinate managers into doing his dirty work with regard to his bks made up suspensions so he could investigate it
- wanted all communication from the charity with external regulators to go through him and not through the relevant clinician manager...
- deliberartelty hobbled the charity's operations in a locality so his NHS ambulance bosses had free run at providing Emergency ambulances for crowd events ...
Cool story, bro.-liked to give the impression he was a a 'proper ' ambulanceman despite being a lay manager in comms
- made it well know that he was a mason, a DL and JP and had a slew of other honorifics , all through greasing wheels
- used ' i work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
- like to make sure people knew he was a JP
- liked to bully subordinate managers into doing his dirty work with regard to his b
ks made up suspensions so he could investigate it - wanted all communication from the charity with external regulators to go through him and not through the relevant clinician manager...
- deliberartelty hobbled the charity's operations in a locality so his NHS ambulance bosses had free run at providing Emergency ambulances for crowd events ...
same service was involved in a number of 'fingers in the till' issues with senior mangers and it's also implicated in another 'scandal ' ( to say more would identify the service and the individual vis a fairly striaghtforward deduction)
mph1977 said:
Osinjak said:
mph1977 said:
sounds like the kind of stunt that an senior NHS lay Manager of my unfortunate Acquaintance would pull, but he was a first order pillock regardless
-liked to give the impression he was a a 'proper ' ambulanceman despite being a lay manager in comms
- made it well know that he was a mason, a DL and JP and had a slew of other honorifics , all through greasing wheels
- used ' i work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
- like to make sure people knew he was a JP
- liked to bully subordinate managers into doing his dirty work with regard to his bks made up suspensions so he could investigate it
- wanted all communication from the charity with external regulators to go through him and not through the relevant clinician manager...
- deliberartelty hobbled the charity's operations in a locality so his NHS ambulance bosses had free run at providing Emergency ambulances for crowd events ...
Cool story, bro.-liked to give the impression he was a a 'proper ' ambulanceman despite being a lay manager in comms
- made it well know that he was a mason, a DL and JP and had a slew of other honorifics , all through greasing wheels
- used ' i work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
- like to make sure people knew he was a JP
- liked to bully subordinate managers into doing his dirty work with regard to his b
ks made up suspensions so he could investigate it - wanted all communication from the charity with external regulators to go through him and not through the relevant clinician manager...
- deliberartelty hobbled the charity's operations in a locality so his NHS ambulance bosses had free run at providing Emergency ambulances for crowd events ...
same service was involved in a number of 'fingers in the till' issues with senior mangers and it's also implicated in another 'scandal ' ( to say more would identify the service and the individual vis a fairly striaghtforward deduction)
Jon1967x said:
mph1977 said:
Osinjak said:
mph1977 said:
sounds like the kind of stunt that an senior NHS lay Manager of my unfortunate Acquaintance would pull, but he was a first order pillock regardless
-liked to give the impression he was a a 'proper ' ambulanceman despite being a lay manager in comms
- made it well know that he was a mason, a DL and JP and had a slew of other honorifics , all through greasing wheels
- used ' i work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
- like to make sure people knew he was a JP
- liked to bully subordinate managers into doing his dirty work with regard to his bks made up suspensions so he could investigate it
- wanted all communication from the charity with external regulators to go through him and not through the relevant clinician manager...
- deliberartelty hobbled the charity's operations in a locality so his NHS ambulance bosses had free run at providing Emergency ambulances for crowd events ...
Cool story, bro.-liked to give the impression he was a a 'proper ' ambulanceman despite being a lay manager in comms
- made it well know that he was a mason, a DL and JP and had a slew of other honorifics , all through greasing wheels
- used ' i work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
- like to make sure people knew he was a JP
- liked to bully subordinate managers into doing his dirty work with regard to his b
ks made up suspensions so he could investigate it - wanted all communication from the charity with external regulators to go through him and not through the relevant clinician manager...
- deliberartelty hobbled the charity's operations in a locality so his NHS ambulance bosses had free run at providing Emergency ambulances for crowd events ...
same service was involved in a number of 'fingers in the till' issues with senior mangers and it's also implicated in another 'scandal ' ( to say more would identify the service and the individual vis a fairly striaghtforward deduction)
JustinP1 said:
I should add that previously when such a thing has been put to us, it's been on the phone and my tact has been to let them rant on the before repeating what they have implied back and they realise how unreasonable they've been and how unacceptable the demand is.
On this occasion, for the first time, it's in an email.
Is the dodgy counterparty a woman, by any chance?On this occasion, for the first time, it's in an email.
mph1977 said:
- used 'I work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
A charity that undertakes Close Quarter Combat regulated activities?Is it the 'A Team' by any chance?
Sorry...
Jim1556 said:
mph1977 said:
- used 'I work for the ambulance service' constantly in his role (now removed both the role and him personally due to widespread abuse of the role across the country) with a large Charity which undertakes CQC regulated activities .
A charity that undertakes Close Quarter Combat regulated activities?Is it the 'A Team' by any chance?
Sorry...
A few years ago HSBC owed us £350,000 and we are a small company....
Whilst we were getting more orders on a monthly basis and being paid funds on a monthly basis the debt was increasing and we were getting rather frustrated and concerned - some of the debt was over 36 months old.
I was told that if I even thought about employing the services of a debt collection agency or got any tougher with them we'd be dropped as a supplier like a hot potato.
We did, we got our money fairly quickly and 6 months later we were dropped.
I don't care, an order isn't an order until it's paid for.
Whilst we were getting more orders on a monthly basis and being paid funds on a monthly basis the debt was increasing and we were getting rather frustrated and concerned - some of the debt was over 36 months old.
I was told that if I even thought about employing the services of a debt collection agency or got any tougher with them we'd be dropped as a supplier like a hot potato.
We did, we got our money fairly quickly and 6 months later we were dropped.
I don't care, an order isn't an order until it's paid for.
HoHoHo said:
A few years ago HSBC owed us £350,000 and we are a small company....
Whilst we were getting more orders on a monthly basis and being paid funds on a monthly basis the debt was increasing and we were getting rather frustrated and concerned - some of the debt was over 36 months old.
I was told that if I even thought about employing the services of a debt collection agency or got any tougher with them we'd be dropped as a supplier like a hot potato.
We did, we got our money fairly quickly and 6 months later we were dropped.
I don't care, an order isn't an order until it's paid for.
Did you remember to stick them for late payment + interest according to the late payment legislation? If not, then anything that's under 6 years old is still fair game for you...Whilst we were getting more orders on a monthly basis and being paid funds on a monthly basis the debt was increasing and we were getting rather frustrated and concerned - some of the debt was over 36 months old.
I was told that if I even thought about employing the services of a debt collection agency or got any tougher with them we'd be dropped as a supplier like a hot potato.
We did, we got our money fairly quickly and 6 months later we were dropped.
I don't care, an order isn't an order until it's paid for.
Cyberprog said:
HoHoHo said:
A few years ago HSBC owed us £350,000 and we are a small company....
Whilst we were getting more orders on a monthly basis and being paid funds on a monthly basis the debt was increasing and we were getting rather frustrated and concerned - some of the debt was over 36 months old.
I was told that if I even thought about employing the services of a debt collection agency or got any tougher with them we'd be dropped as a supplier like a hot potato.
We did, we got our money fairly quickly and 6 months later we were dropped.
I don't care, an order isn't an order until it's paid for.
Did you remember to stick them for late payment + interest according to the late payment legislation? If not, then anything that's under 6 years old is still fair game for you...Whilst we were getting more orders on a monthly basis and being paid funds on a monthly basis the debt was increasing and we were getting rather frustrated and concerned - some of the debt was over 36 months old.
I was told that if I even thought about employing the services of a debt collection agency or got any tougher with them we'd be dropped as a supplier like a hot potato.
We did, we got our money fairly quickly and 6 months later we were dropped.
I don't care, an order isn't an order until it's paid for.
However I'll have a look first thing tomorrow but I suspect we're over time.
An update chaps - and an interesting one!
First off, thanks for the input so far, I did take this perspective on board. I wrote a letter to the head of the organisation, and sat on it with the knowledge as pointed out that if the organisation acted properly, it would be damaging for the persons career.
Instead I followed up my reply to the threat asking for it to be clarified seven days later with another email, requesting what was needed to finish the works. Both were ignored, so their threat should we rock the boat was very much relied upon.
So a crafted a third email, carefully, with the knowledge that it would be repeated.
It said I had taken advice, and I copied almost verbatim the section of the Theft Act regarding blackmail, and referred to the gain they would make, the loss we would make, how it was demanded, and repeated their explicit threat of the body that would be told not to work with us if we 'pursued' the matter.
I was very careful to be factual, and put it to them, on the third time of asking whether in light of the above whether they would like to retract the threat. Alternatively, upon the given deadline I would be left with no option than to contact the head of the organisation, to confirm that defamation would not take place, and the demand expressed was not shared by the organisation. I don't even mention being paid for our work, or any demand at all, simply a request to retract the threat.
Clearly, that made the person jump, as I've received two letters, one from the person making the demand, and one from the head. Neither are longer than the letter in Arkell v Pressdram, and similar content! The person making the demand tells me that I cannot contact them, and I must wait from their union legal advisor.
The head of the organisation states that I have been bullying and threatening, that they will not contact me in future and that I must speak to the council legal dept and that they will ensure that Trading Standards will thoroughly investigate us!
I should point out that I have no fear of the latter, however, it is the case that not only has their threat not even been denied, it is now positively reinforced and expanded on...
In hindsight, I should have gone straight to the head. Silly me for thinking of the blackmailer's career. What I think has happened is the head has been provided with some very selective information to garner support. Or, he is just as corrupt as the other person.
Open to the floor chaps!
And if I need to lawyer up on this when I get the reply, does anyone have any recommendations for this field?
First off, thanks for the input so far, I did take this perspective on board. I wrote a letter to the head of the organisation, and sat on it with the knowledge as pointed out that if the organisation acted properly, it would be damaging for the persons career.
Instead I followed up my reply to the threat asking for it to be clarified seven days later with another email, requesting what was needed to finish the works. Both were ignored, so their threat should we rock the boat was very much relied upon.
So a crafted a third email, carefully, with the knowledge that it would be repeated.
It said I had taken advice, and I copied almost verbatim the section of the Theft Act regarding blackmail, and referred to the gain they would make, the loss we would make, how it was demanded, and repeated their explicit threat of the body that would be told not to work with us if we 'pursued' the matter.
I was very careful to be factual, and put it to them, on the third time of asking whether in light of the above whether they would like to retract the threat. Alternatively, upon the given deadline I would be left with no option than to contact the head of the organisation, to confirm that defamation would not take place, and the demand expressed was not shared by the organisation. I don't even mention being paid for our work, or any demand at all, simply a request to retract the threat.
Clearly, that made the person jump, as I've received two letters, one from the person making the demand, and one from the head. Neither are longer than the letter in Arkell v Pressdram, and similar content! The person making the demand tells me that I cannot contact them, and I must wait from their union legal advisor.
The head of the organisation states that I have been bullying and threatening, that they will not contact me in future and that I must speak to the council legal dept and that they will ensure that Trading Standards will thoroughly investigate us!
I should point out that I have no fear of the latter, however, it is the case that not only has their threat not even been denied, it is now positively reinforced and expanded on...
In hindsight, I should have gone straight to the head. Silly me for thinking of the blackmailer's career. What I think has happened is the head has been provided with some very selective information to garner support. Or, he is just as corrupt as the other person.
Open to the floor chaps!
And if I need to lawyer up on this when I get the reply, does anyone have any recommendations for this field?
Edited by JustinP1 on Friday 12th December 21:47
JustinP1 said:
My motivation here is not to get the person in trouble but to simply move things forward so we can get paid with a minimum of fuss.
I had similar with a Council employee, I went straight to the Head of the Council and got him into trouble - he thought he'd lose his job and whilst in my initial anger that was fine with me with hindsight it would have been better to mention that if he didn't behave I would THEN go to his superiors.If you keep information back you have control of the situation if you report them then they may well have nothing to lose by spreading misleading information about you.
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