MHA deputy Chief speaks out
Discussion
Apparently a 16 Year old girl in Devon/Cornwall was sectioned on Friday and has spent 2 days in police cells since as there is no suitable accommodation available. Outrageous in my opinion.
The DCC has gone public with his dismay at this situation, via twitter.
And miraculously a place has now been found for her!
Good for him. Locking mentally ill people in police cells, let alone teenagers should not be allowed in this day and age.
The DCC has gone public with his dismay at this situation, via twitter.
And miraculously a place has now been found for her!
Good for him. Locking mentally ill people in police cells, let alone teenagers should not be allowed in this day and age.
Good
Much less needs to be hidden by "the establishment"
According to reports a judge "named & shamed" 3 social workers this week.
I don't think it will help his promotion prospects but good on him for doing what he "thought was the right thing" albeit he's probably embarrassed some faceless individual/people.
Much less needs to be hidden by "the establishment"
According to reports a judge "named & shamed" 3 social workers this week.
I don't think it will help his promotion prospects but good on him for doing what he "thought was the right thing" albeit he's probably embarrassed some faceless individual/people.
Mojooo said:
I did wonder if he had 'gone rogue' and put that tweet out by himself, but I doubt it, I suspect it was a considered decision by his Police Force to stick a finger up at the Government or whatever.
I would not be surprised. When I was training all those years ago I was told by a few plod that they are all too often being required to effectively act as Mental Health nurses. Perhaps they have decided to show the public how preposterous the situation is.Sounds like some PR BS from the NHS spokesperson:
It's not a system I'd want to be obtaining help from.
NHS spokesperson said:
"After details were provided to NHS England about the girl and her condition, a place was found locally within a few hours.
"We are grateful for the help of the NHS in the area in identifying the place.
"It is worth noting that mental health crisis services have been expanding so that the number of people ending up in police cells is in fact down - but clearly more needs to be done."
I've done a reasonable amount of work with NHS mental health / police liaison and they are exceptionally stretched. One example being on a Friday night they were pretty much told not to section anyone as the nearest bed were 250 miles away."We are grateful for the help of the NHS in the area in identifying the place.
"It is worth noting that mental health crisis services have been expanding so that the number of people ending up in police cells is in fact down - but clearly more needs to be done."
It's not a system I'd want to be obtaining help from.
She was detained after a breach of the peace in a hospital on Thursday.
So she was in a hospital. She should be in a hospital. But was taken from a hospital to a police station?
Were there any other options than taking her to a police station? How severe of a breach of the peace was it?
So she was in a hospital. She should be in a hospital. But was taken from a hospital to a police station?
Were there any other options than taking her to a police station? How severe of a breach of the peace was it?
Holding people who are clearly ill in cells because of the lack of beds is all to common sadly.
My old force took years to persuade the local health authority to fund a (one) MH bed for those detained by Police on the street under S136 etc
Before we could be stuck with them for hours, requiring constant supervision and a disproportionate amount of time to monitor at the expense of all the other prisoners. The local MH team were good but they had no resources, and the LA for years just basically ignored legislation which stated they had a duty to provide places.
They were safe in our care, but when someone is clearly mentally unwell it's farcical.
Unless they are uncontrollably violent/dangerous (minute proportion) then no one should end up in a Police station having been detained under S136.
Of course if they come to the station for any other reason (as in this case) and are then deemed unwell, well you are stuck with them until a bed can be found.
Note. Arresting clearly unwell people for other offences (Breach of the peace is a good example) when not in public places (s136 MHA did not apply) was very common at one time.
We could count half a dozen MH cases a week coming to the station at one time. (It's a bit better now I believe)
I say good on him and hope he gets some credit for speaking out.
My old force took years to persuade the local health authority to fund a (one) MH bed for those detained by Police on the street under S136 etc
Before we could be stuck with them for hours, requiring constant supervision and a disproportionate amount of time to monitor at the expense of all the other prisoners. The local MH team were good but they had no resources, and the LA for years just basically ignored legislation which stated they had a duty to provide places.
They were safe in our care, but when someone is clearly mentally unwell it's farcical.
Unless they are uncontrollably violent/dangerous (minute proportion) then no one should end up in a Police station having been detained under S136.
Of course if they come to the station for any other reason (as in this case) and are then deemed unwell, well you are stuck with them until a bed can be found.
Note. Arresting clearly unwell people for other offences (Breach of the peace is a good example) when not in public places (s136 MHA did not apply) was very common at one time.
We could count half a dozen MH cases a week coming to the station at one time. (It's a bit better now I believe)
I say good on him and hope he gets some credit for speaking out.
there is little being presented about the decision making process throughout this episode.
as noted above, she was arrested for a ?public order offence and conveyed to custody - presumably this was felt to be the appropriate disposal at the time. other options may/would have been available - what consideration was given to use of Police powers under MHA, Children's Act, Local Authority responsibility to Safeguard or the general provisions of the Capacity Act. I infer that the presentation changed following arrival to the custody suite (yeah, that never happens does it?), that the FME has requested a MHA assessment and the outcome of that assessment (formal admission) is where the problems really started
i am aware that officers strongly feel that they are exposed to being used as a sort of paramilitary wing of the MH services but I am equally persuaded that a representative sample of MH practitioners complain of the reverse - chronic debate around mad vs bad.
there is reference (in the reports i've been able to access) on more than one occasion to place of safety but I am not aware that this was an issue in this case? Sec136 MHA clearly defines a "Place of Safety" (which can be a Police cell) but experientally and anecdotally there is confusion in the minds of some as to the differences between a safe(r) place and an "Approved Place of Safety".
every provider will have in place policy and procedure for reviewing serious untoward incidents which, other things being equal, this appears to be. I confidently predict that at least an internal review will already have been triggered and await the findings with some interest as access to emergency CAMHS beds appears to be a significant, albeit infrequent, problem nationwide.
paul
as noted above, she was arrested for a ?public order offence and conveyed to custody - presumably this was felt to be the appropriate disposal at the time. other options may/would have been available - what consideration was given to use of Police powers under MHA, Children's Act, Local Authority responsibility to Safeguard or the general provisions of the Capacity Act. I infer that the presentation changed following arrival to the custody suite (yeah, that never happens does it?), that the FME has requested a MHA assessment and the outcome of that assessment (formal admission) is where the problems really started
i am aware that officers strongly feel that they are exposed to being used as a sort of paramilitary wing of the MH services but I am equally persuaded that a representative sample of MH practitioners complain of the reverse - chronic debate around mad vs bad.
there is reference (in the reports i've been able to access) on more than one occasion to place of safety but I am not aware that this was an issue in this case? Sec136 MHA clearly defines a "Place of Safety" (which can be a Police cell) but experientally and anecdotally there is confusion in the minds of some as to the differences between a safe(r) place and an "Approved Place of Safety".
every provider will have in place policy and procedure for reviewing serious untoward incidents which, other things being equal, this appears to be. I confidently predict that at least an internal review will already have been triggered and await the findings with some interest as access to emergency CAMHS beds appears to be a significant, albeit infrequent, problem nationwide.
paul
Does this count as context?:
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Police-chief-b...
I caught last week's Andrew Marr show with Hogan-Howe, Theresa May and David Davis on iplayer earlier before it expired. The programme started with the cuts and shortfalls in mental health provision within the NHS and the proportion of mental health nurses in their 50s compared to the shortage of trainee nurses entering that specialisation.
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/Police-chief-b...
I caught last week's Andrew Marr show with Hogan-Howe, Theresa May and David Davis on iplayer earlier before it expired. The programme started with the cuts and shortfalls in mental health provision within the NHS and the proportion of mental health nurses in their 50s compared to the shortage of trainee nurses entering that specialisation.
Edited by carinaman on Sunday 30th November 11:48
paul makin said:
there is little being presented about the decision making process throughout this episode.
It sounds like she's presented at hospital, and as usual, the NHS mental health services lack the skills, capability and capacity to deal with a spontaneous mental health incident on their doorstep.Don't get me wrong, there's no problem calling the police if she's a physical risk. But "assist" usually turns in to "sort our medical issue", which mental health fundamentally is. Not to mention the social issue of a child with mental health issues presenting on her own. But we need not even comment in the probability of social services dealing with a spontaneous incident.
These two services really need some development in terms of responding and dealing with spontaneous incidents. That's unlikely to occur with the funding cuts they're receiving.
It says a lot about our society that it's easier to find a cell to put someone in than a hospital bed. Can anyone imagine the outcry if we were putting cancer patients in police cells?
I'm repeating myself, and sailing against the wind here. But if we chose to have world class drug/alcohol treatment and mental health services then we would have far fewer people in prison and society would be a better place. There is more political capital in putting people in cages and punishing them, than putting them in hospitals and helping them.
Police cells are no place for the mentally ill. For a child hearing the screaming and shouting and people banging on cell doors must be terrifying.
I'm repeating myself, and sailing against the wind here. But if we chose to have world class drug/alcohol treatment and mental health services then we would have far fewer people in prison and society would be a better place. There is more political capital in putting people in cages and punishing them, than putting them in hospitals and helping them.
Police cells are no place for the mentally ill. For a child hearing the screaming and shouting and people banging on cell doors must be terrifying.
I think the point here is simple - the provision of mental health services is lower than it shoul be - I dont think there is any aprticular aim to bung people into a police cell to save money - what needs to be highlighted is the shortage so it can be address.
Similar shortages exist throughout public services.
Similar shortages exist throughout public services.
I spent hours fighting the Mill Brook unit, at Kings Mill Hospital, to take in those who they had lost or turfed out, only to end up taking 90% of them to custody in Mansfield.
It was funny how the doors were always open until you turned up to drop off a patient. I'm glad someone's actually made the public aware.
It was funny how the doors were always open until you turned up to drop off a patient. I'm glad someone's actually made the public aware.
she was arrested at a hospital that has acute, adult mental health in-patient facilities and a Liaison Psychiatry team working into the acute trust clinical areas. custody was considered appropriate at the material time so it's perhaps disingenuous to suggest that she should not have been in the cells. unless the arresting officers' assessment of need and risk was faulty in some way of course which would be a whole new thread perhaps.
i'm struggling to work out why she needed to stay in the cells for that length of time following the MHA assessment. i can think of several circumstances where this might have become necessary but every mental health provider i've worked with, or for, over the last 25 years has had clear protocol for dealing with this type of situation. some of the options available may not be ideal but they are better than a cell and certainly less potentially damaging than placing (what may be) a vulnerable minor in an adult psychiatric treatment setting.
i'm certainly not trying to defend the trust involved and have lost work in the past because of my attitude towards patient care (ie, it's why we're here and is our primary objective after staying in business) but i do wonder what their CAMHS service specification is and why their response to this referral for admission was less than timely. again, my inference is that there may be a little more to this than the initial reports are disclosing and without more details we are just speculating.
paul
i'm struggling to work out why she needed to stay in the cells for that length of time following the MHA assessment. i can think of several circumstances where this might have become necessary but every mental health provider i've worked with, or for, over the last 25 years has had clear protocol for dealing with this type of situation. some of the options available may not be ideal but they are better than a cell and certainly less potentially damaging than placing (what may be) a vulnerable minor in an adult psychiatric treatment setting.
i'm certainly not trying to defend the trust involved and have lost work in the past because of my attitude towards patient care (ie, it's why we're here and is our primary objective after staying in business) but i do wonder what their CAMHS service specification is and why their response to this referral for admission was less than timely. again, my inference is that there may be a little more to this than the initial reports are disclosing and without more details we are just speculating.
paul
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