Salesman cock up?
Discussion
REALIST123 said:
Rubbish. The new figures might be correct but it's highly unlikely that the original ones were an error. You know that as well as I do.
Several years ago, one of my colleagues had his Volvo in at the main dealer for service and was given a loaner that was a car being used by a sales exec.
On the floor behind the seat was a folder of 'sales techniques'. Amongst all the usual such as the sales rep agreeing a great trade in or discount to be then overruled by his boss after a conversation in view of the customer, and another rep coming to ask for the keys to a car being demoed on the pretext that he had another interested party, was almost exactly what we've been told about here.
Offer a great finance deal, trade in whatever, get the punter on the hook and then withdraw the offer because of some 'mistake' once the customer is set on getting the car.
Over the years I've been subject to the first 'technique' a few times. I find that walking away out of the view from the office soon stops that game and gets to the truth of any offer.
Always approach car dealers with cynicism and never think you have a deal until the paperwork is signed and you have the car.
Outdated sales techniques no longer used by the majority but were 'several years ago' shocker Several years ago, one of my colleagues had his Volvo in at the main dealer for service and was given a loaner that was a car being used by a sales exec.
On the floor behind the seat was a folder of 'sales techniques'. Amongst all the usual such as the sales rep agreeing a great trade in or discount to be then overruled by his boss after a conversation in view of the customer, and another rep coming to ask for the keys to a car being demoed on the pretext that he had another interested party, was almost exactly what we've been told about here.
Offer a great finance deal, trade in whatever, get the punter on the hook and then withdraw the offer because of some 'mistake' once the customer is set on getting the car.
Over the years I've been subject to the first 'technique' a few times. I find that walking away out of the view from the office soon stops that game and gets to the truth of any offer.
Always approach car dealers with cynicism and never think you have a deal until the paperwork is signed and you have the car.
Did you know some dealers used to throw the keys to your car on the roof so you couldn't leave without buying a car? That doesn't happen anymore either.
HTP99 said:
Invitation to treat.
Basically they don't have to sell it at the advertised price; whether internet, news paper, or price in the screen as mistakes can happen.
Doesn't apply to adverts but if the screen price was misleading then they could get into trouble for breaching the Price Marking Regulations. Hence supermarkets will usually honour an incorrectly marked price.Basically they don't have to sell it at the advertised price; whether internet, news paper, or price in the screen as mistakes can happen.
ASA could get involved if a firm was advertising incorrect prices.
Both the above would need there to be some history of wrong-doing, not one-offs. And neither would help the consumer at an individual level.
My Dad had this with his previous car change (Merc to Merc) only they realised after he'd taken delivery of the new car, they tried to dress it up as "just few more forms to sign with a slight amend", monthly repayments up 25%!
He refused, salesman begged, dealer principle begged, Mercedes UK got involved nit at dealers choice, dealer principle rang to say they would take it on the chin!
3 years later and time to change again, salesman referred my father to dealer principle who did the deal and joked that he was sure he'd got the figures right this time all pretty amicably really..
So might it be worth yoru son arguing that they made an "offer" which he "accepted" therefore is a valid contract?
He refused, salesman begged, dealer principle begged, Mercedes UK got involved nit at dealers choice, dealer principle rang to say they would take it on the chin!
3 years later and time to change again, salesman referred my father to dealer principle who did the deal and joked that he was sure he'd got the figures right this time all pretty amicably really..
So might it be worth yoru son arguing that they made an "offer" which he "accepted" therefore is a valid contract?
Marcellus said:
So might it be worth yoru son arguing that they made an "offer" which he "accepted" therefore is a valid contract?
I'd go with that as well. The "invitation to treat" thing has been mentioned, but since it seems that paperwork has been signed, therefore the dealer has accepted the customer's "offer" to buy the car, at that price, with those terms.Marcellus said:
My Dad had this with his previous car change (Merc to Merc) only they realised after he'd taken delivery of the new car, they tried to dress it up as "just few more forms to sign with a slight amend", monthly repayments up 25%!
He refused, salesman begged, dealer principle begged, Mercedes UK got involved nit at dealers choice, dealer principle rang to say they would take it on the chin!
3 years later and time to change again, salesman referred my father to dealer principle who did the deal and joked that he was sure he'd got the figures right this time all pretty amicably really..
So might it be worth yoru son arguing that they made an "offer" which he "accepted" therefore is a valid contract?
They'll just pull the deal and let you take it to court, which is very unlikely to happen.He refused, salesman begged, dealer principle begged, Mercedes UK got involved nit at dealers choice, dealer principle rang to say they would take it on the chin!
3 years later and time to change again, salesman referred my father to dealer principle who did the deal and joked that he was sure he'd got the figures right this time all pretty amicably really..
So might it be worth yoru son arguing that they made an "offer" which he "accepted" therefore is a valid contract?
Once the car has been delivered, it's a different kettle of fish to then try and ask for more money as per your dads case. Pretty crap situation for a dealer to put anyone in.
Back to the OP, the deal has been done erroneously. The OP's son knew he had finance on his car, I assume he never said 'so what's happening about the settlement on my car?' as it would have been dealt with there.
Salesman has made a cock up, it's been picked up before money has changed hands. There's probably some consumer rights act amendment part 6 (1996) that means the OP could fight it and take it to court, would he win, possibly, but is it worth the hassle? Probably not.
Centurion07 said:
I'd go with that as well. The "invitation to treat" thing has been mentioned, but since it seems that paperwork has been signed, therefore the dealer has accepted the customer's "offer" to buy the car, at that price, with those terms.
First time I've ever done finance was on a new car bought for my daughter a couple of months ago where we got "forced" into a 0% APR deal as there was extra support available from the manufacturer.Someone in the trade will understand this better, but it's my understanding that the way it works is the deal is proposed in advance, but only completed on the day. In that case the order form should be full of get-out clauses such as "tentative", "estimated" etc.
Having said that, a colleague bought a stock new car on PCP but it turned out it had also been sold to someone else. Dealer initially said hard luck, but colleague said "I've paid a deposit so there's a legally binding contract" and they backed down and honoured the deal on a factory ordered car. They muttered about the finance but it went through at the same supported rate.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Saturday 13th December 12:22
Last year I sold a 3 year old car that was traded in with us, my colleague took it in but for some reason got the settlement vs value wrong by £1200; car owed £3500 we valued at £4700 so the lady had £1200 equity which she used as the deposit on the new car, he did the deal and off she went happy.
A couple of months later I sold the car and our records flagged up that the finance hadn't been cleared, we looked into it and it transpired that my colleague a) hadn't sent a settlement cheque to the finance company and b)the settlement was infact £4700, we managed to get it backdated to when we took the car in.
We cleared the finance and my colleague tried to get the £1200 out of the woman who traded it, rightly she told him to swivel and she said she would have never ordered the new car if she had to have come up with the £1200, my colleague had to pay the £1200.
A couple of months later I sold the car and our records flagged up that the finance hadn't been cleared, we looked into it and it transpired that my colleague a) hadn't sent a settlement cheque to the finance company and b)the settlement was infact £4700, we managed to get it backdated to when we took the car in.
We cleared the finance and my colleague tried to get the £1200 out of the woman who traded it, rightly she told him to swivel and she said she would have never ordered the new car if she had to have come up with the £1200, my colleague had to pay the £1200.
I had similar around three years ago when I bought a used E350. Had the car for a week and received a call from the dealer (Sytner Mercedes) explaining that they'd calculated the finance wrong. It was a PCP deal and they had based the future value of it on it being a new rather than used car (I think it was around 8 months old): "Sir, your repayments are going to go up by over £100 per month...." No chance! Rejected the car the next day!
It kind of got a bit awkward because they'd had my Q7 in part-ex and that had already been sold on to a trader. Ended up buying a brand new pre-registered E350 from them and got a really good deal on it. Actually worked out for the best TBH.
This thread has got me wondering whether it was a genuine cock-up or a sales tactic though!
It kind of got a bit awkward because they'd had my Q7 in part-ex and that had already been sold on to a trader. Ended up buying a brand new pre-registered E350 from them and got a really good deal on it. Actually worked out for the best TBH.
This thread has got me wondering whether it was a genuine cock-up or a sales tactic though!
ruff'n'smov said:
went with him to get refund and he ask for them to split the difference and they point blank refused.
Ultimately someone else will get tye deal
Regardless of it being a error or deliberate. 11th hour cock up call gives no.confidence in the knobs.
Will they be compensating him for his loss of time and disappointment?Ultimately someone else will get tye deal
Regardless of it being a error or deliberate. 11th hour cock up call gives no.confidence in the knobs.
Sheepshanks said:
ruff'n'smov said:
went with him to get refund and he ask for them to split the difference and they point blank refused.
Ultimately someone else will get tye deal
Regardless of it being a error or deliberate. 11th hour cock up call gives no.confidence in the knobs.
Will they be compensating him for his loss of time and disappointment?Ultimately someone else will get tye deal
Regardless of it being a error or deliberate. 11th hour cock up call gives no.confidence in the knobs.
The Financial Ombudsman would certainly look at it, but from their own guidelines:
'Once we have decided to uphold a complaint, we consider the extent to which the business's actions affected the consumer – if they had any impact at all. For us to make an award, we would need to decide that the impact on a consumer has been larger than the usual minor inconveniences and upsets we all have.'
I'd pretty much say this is a minor inconvenience TBH.
Sheepshanks said:
Butter Face said:
Why should they?
Surely in the spirit of treating customers fairly, they should give him an amount equal to his deposit, which is what they would have retained if he'd failed to keep his side of the bargain?Simple answer, no. They're not obligated to, just in the way that dealers can't really keep customer deposits unless they can and are willing in a court of law to prove a loss to justify keeping it.
If OP's son really felt he has lost money/would like to seek damaged over this he can speak to the financial ombudsman and go for it. He would need a damn strong case and in reality it's very difficult in normal circumstances to prove that case.
The spirit of TCF is to make sure customers are informed, they understand what they're buying/not buying, they have choices and make their own 'informed decisions' with nothing hidden from them.
The dealer saying 'Sorry for messing you around my old mucker, here's £250 for your time' is a ridiculous request. If they decided to improve the deal based on the hassle to keep the customer happy then they could, but as proven, that's their prerogative, in this case they weren't bothered.
Butter Face said:
The spirit of TCF is to make sure customers are informed, they understand what they're buying/not buying, they have choices and make their own 'informed decisions' with nothing hidden from them.
Well self-evidently the dealer failed there.I know this is tough for you to appreciate as buying and selling cars is everyday routine to you, but most people invest a lot of time, effort and emotion in the process. Probably more so it it's a used car, where you've got to satisfy yourself that you're not buying a pup.
To kick the customers legs from under him the day before collection and then refuse any sort of compromise is extremely poor.
Sheepshanks said:
Butter Face said:
The spirit of TCF is to make sure customers are informed, they understand what they're buying/not buying, they have choices and make their own 'informed decisions' with nothing hidden from them.
Well self-evidently the dealer failed there.I know this is tough for you to appreciate as buying and selling cars is everyday routine to you, but most people invest a lot of time, effort and emotion in the process. Probably more so it it's a used car, where you've got to satisfy yourself that you're not buying a pup.
To kick the customers legs from under him the day before collection and then refuse any sort of compromise is extremely poor.
They've cocked up, they've said they've cocked up. They don't have to do anything about it, it's poor form to not do anything but have the done anything legally wrong? Nope.
I agree that people invest time etc, so does the salesman tbh and he won't be getting anything for 'lost time'
ruff'n'smov said:
No. They at the last minute said that the cost has increased because the salesman miss calculated the price to change because he had forgot to include the settlement of PX into account.
This doesn't make sense, if they forgot to take into account the value of the trade it, that would reduce the amount financed and should reduce the rate and monthly payment. Looks like they lied once, are still lying now. Tell them to sling their hook. They can't hold your son to the deal, it has been blatantly miss-sold.The dealer doesn't control the finance rate, the finance company does.
Martin4x4 said:
ruff'n'smov said:
No. They at the last minute said that the cost has increased because the salesman miss calculated the price to change because he had forgot to include the settlement of PX into account.
This doesn't make sense, if they forgot to take into account the value of the trade it, that would reduce the amount financed and should reduce the rate and monthly payment. Looks like they lied once, are still lying now. Tell them to sling their hook. They can't hold your son to the deal, it has been blatantly miss-sold.The dealer doesn't control the finance rate, the finance company does.
They forgot about the settlement, the money still owing on the px. So £10k PX - £4k settlement = 6k. If you forget the settlement it reduces the monthly payments.
Also, finance companies set base rates, dealerships can upsell (put the rate up) if they want, it makes them money.
Butter Face said:
REALIST123 said:
Rubbish. The new figures might be correct but it's highly unlikely that the original ones were an error. You know that as well as I do.
Several years ago, one of my colleagues had his Volvo in at the main dealer for service and was given a loaner that was a car being used by a sales exec.
On the floor behind the seat was a folder of 'sales techniques'. Amongst all the usual such as the sales rep agreeing a great trade in or discount to be then overruled by his boss after a conversation in view of the customer, and another rep coming to ask for the keys to a car being demoed on the pretext that he had another interested party, was almost exactly what we've been told about here.
Offer a great finance deal, trade in whatever, get the punter on the hook and then withdraw the offer because of some 'mistake' once the customer is set on getting the car.
Over the years I've been subject to the first 'technique' a few times. I find that walking away out of the view from the office soon stops that game and gets to the truth of any offer.
Always approach car dealers with cynicism and never think you have a deal until the paperwork is signed and you have the car.
Outdated sales techniques no longer used by the majority but were 'several years ago' shocker Several years ago, one of my colleagues had his Volvo in at the main dealer for service and was given a loaner that was a car being used by a sales exec.
On the floor behind the seat was a folder of 'sales techniques'. Amongst all the usual such as the sales rep agreeing a great trade in or discount to be then overruled by his boss after a conversation in view of the customer, and another rep coming to ask for the keys to a car being demoed on the pretext that he had another interested party, was almost exactly what we've been told about here.
Offer a great finance deal, trade in whatever, get the punter on the hook and then withdraw the offer because of some 'mistake' once the customer is set on getting the car.
Over the years I've been subject to the first 'technique' a few times. I find that walking away out of the view from the office soon stops that game and gets to the truth of any offer.
Always approach car dealers with cynicism and never think you have a deal until the paperwork is signed and you have the car.
Did you know some dealers used to throw the keys to your car on the roof so you couldn't leave without buying a car? That doesn't happen anymore either.
My point is that anyone who believes a sales rep is going to do what's best for a customer, or be transparent in the deal and would never try to mislead or be economical with the truth deserves all they get.
Never seen or heard of your last comment though I would't be surprised.
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