Detective Constable jailed for PtCoJ over speeding ticket

[Elroy Blue]

TooMany2cvs said:

Mmm. So badly paid, when a constable half-way up the scale is earning more than the national average...
http://www.policeoracle.com/pay_and_conditions/pol...

And if you think the Federation's "toothless", you ought to see the unions that represent the vast majority of private sector staff. Clue: They don't exist.

What exactly do you think the Fed can do. If you don't like what your employer does, you have the full range of industrial rights open to you. Police have NONE. Not one.

So please list what action the Fed can take. Tell us what they can do around pay negotiation, pension rights, working hours, working conditions, postings. (I'll give you a hint....nothing)

[Red 4]

TooMany2cvs said:

Mmm. So badly paid, when a constable half-way up the scale is earning more than the national average...
http://www.policeoracle.com/pay_and_conditions/pol...

Most people on the average wage don't get punched, kicked, spat on, stabbed, etc. etc. carry the responsibilities of a police officer or have the same restrictions placed on their private lives.

Or have 14% - that's fourteen percent - deducted from their salary to pay for a *much reduced* pension.

[Quinny]

I actually think that an ordinary PC is grossly underpaid for the job they do.....
Unsocial hours, risk of physical harm, horrible shift patterns.....

[Rovinghawk]

Red 4 said:

Or have 14% - that's fourteen percent - deducted from their salary to pay for a *much reduced* pension.

On page 2 of this thread ED209 described it as 'an absolute fortune'.

[anonymous-user]

People are living longer. Pensions need reforming across every sector. That's the blunt reality.

However, reform should then extend to the rights of police officers in terms of what restrictions are placed upon them relative to other public sector workers. Industrial rights should be granted and the requirements to be forced to work and be called in removed.

[Red 4]

La Liga said:

People are living longer. Pensions need reforming across every sector. That's the blunt reality.

However, reform should then extend to the rights of police officers in terms of what restrictions are placed upon them relative to other public sector workers. Industrial rights should be granted and the requirements to be forced to work and be called in removed.

The job has been run on the goodwill of officers for years.

There's a simple answer - work to Police Regs. No law breaking, just absolutely according to the rules.

The job would be fked.

[anonymous-user]

I agree. Officers need to be a lot more militant when it comes to the existing regulations.

[Elroy Blue]

Red 4 said:

It's fooked now.

Another £299 million removed from Policing yesterday. In addition, £45 million salami sliced from the existing budget to go to the IPCC (30 Mill) HMIC (10 Mill) and College of Policing (4.5 mill). The counter terrorism budget was also frozen.

SO over 25% gone in the last five years. The Tory ambition is to reduce Police down to 80000 by the end of the next Parliament. That's 60000 less than when they came to power.

But it's all Ok. Crime is down apparently and nobody will notice the loss of those 60000 Officers. May announced today that all bail is to be restricted to 28 days. Great. Except they've closed all the forensic labs and it takes more than that to get a simple drink drive blood sample back. Mobile phone examinations are taking 5-6 MONTHS. The future is indeed very bleak.

Edit: I forgot to mention that May's Political stooge Tom Winsor has just been awarded another 5 year contract. Value. £1 million.

Edited by Elroy Blue on Thursday 18th December 15:02

[Red 4]

Elroy Blue said:

It's fooked now.

Another £299 million removed from Policing yesterday. In addition, £45 million salami sliced from the existing budget to go to the IPCC (30 Mill) HMIC (10 Mill) and College of Policing (4.5 mill). The counter terrorism budget was also frozen.

SO over 25% gone in the last five years. The Tory ambition is to reduce Police down to 80000 by the end of the next Parliament. That's 60000 less than when they came to power.

But it's all Ok. Crime is down apparently and nobody will notice the loss of those 60000 Officers. May announced today that all bail is to be restricted to 28 days. Great. Except they've closed all the forensic labs and it takes more than that to get a simple drink drive blood sample back. Mobile phone examinations are taking 5-6 MONTHS. The future is indeed very bleak.

You mean frontline policing is fooked.

There's little evidence of cuts at headquarters (think 4 star hotel) or reductions in the number of staff PCCs employ - but that's another story.

[anonymous-user]

I'm generally pretty optimistic, but the indications are certainly not positive for the future.

An ACPO-ranked officer stopped by the other day and spoke to us. They were rather candid and literally said they don't know where they can make the savings.

CC Rhodes has written to the Home Sec saying they won't be in "business" in three years on their projections. His letter is here.

The only way I see sustainability is through reducing demand, greatly. The problem with this is we need to accept a greater degree of risk and make more superficial judgments. For example, "X has said they are going to kill you on Facebook. The probability of this occurring, in general (prior probabilities), is sweet FA. Therefore we shall not be sending an officer out unless there's further corroboration".

Occasionally, and rarely, someone will get hurt / die, but that's the risk we need to accept in order to have the resources to attend and manage incidents with more immediate, and higher probability risk. The problem is, hindsight reviews mechanisms from the IPCC etc won't see it like that, so we'll remain risk-averse and try and do everything. We also need to get better at telling other agencies to do their own job. The NHS is much more resilient to funding reductions, so doing their job for them needs to cease. Especially in areas of heavy over-lap like mental health.

[Red 4]

La Liga said:

The problem is, hindsight reviews mechanisms from the IPCC etc won't see it like that, so we'll remain risk-averse and try and do everything. We also need to get better at telling other agencies to do their own job. The NHS is much more resilient to funding reductions, so doing their job for them needs to cease. Especially in areas of heavy over-lap like mental health.

And therein lies the problem - which won't change.

I noticed in the letter you linked to the Chief said he has 18 Constables available for deployment in Lincoln on an average Saturday might, which he views as unacceptable - perhaps he should venture out into the sticks and realise exactly how thin resources are spread.

Domestics, for example, are not good when you get sent on your own and your back-up is non-existant.
More officers will be injured (or worse) if the cuts continue, which they will, and the political rhetoric (from politicians) is sickening.

Unfortunately, politics and reality do not go hand in hand.

Edited by Red 4 on Thursday 18th December 15:41

[ED209]

Bigends said:

Pc's pension is nowhere near 36k per annum - you can knock a lump off that

Edited by Bigends on Tuesday 16th December 18:21

Of course the pension is not not 36k but his salary is which his pension is based on!

[ED209]

Elroy Blue said:

TooMany2cvs said:

Since the Police Federation is one of the most powerful unions in the country, I presume you mean the illegality of a police strike? You've been in the force for more than 95 years? Or is it something you were well aware of when you joined?

I also knew that I would be sacrificing my immediate earning potential in exchange for a half decent pension to compensate for the poor hours and working conditions. I mean, as I am represented by 'one of the most powerful unions in the country' (funniest thing I've read in a while) , what could possibly go wrong...oh hang on!

the most powerful union in the country which in fact isn't even an erm.....union. It also doesn't even seem to have the power to reply to its own members emails let alone win them better pay/conditions/pensions.

[carinaman]

ED209 said:

the most powerful union in the country which in fact isn't even an erm.....union. It also doesn't even seem to have the power to reply to its own members emails let alone win them better pay/conditions/pensions.

So the membership voting to allow Special Constables to join may not have done much for Special Constables but increased the membership subs?

[ED209]

carinaman said:

So the membership voting to allow Special Constables to join may not have done much for Special Constables but increased the membership subs?

The membership didn't vote at all, the senior self serving fed reps voted and decided to increase their sub receipts probably in order to spend them on new Italian bogs and buffets at their flash HQ.

[Ginge R]

Red 4 said:

HOWEVER - plans are afoot to change this. When an officer is dismissed (and this includes simply on a discipline without a criminal conviction) the case will be referred to the PCC and they will decide !!! Shocking really and just another kick in the plums for those still serving.

Red,

Can you reference any indication that the benchmark or tolerance for forfeiture will be lowered, or was it just the administrative decision making process that you were implying?

[Red 4]

Ginge R said:

Red 4 said:

HOWEVER - plans are afoot to change this. When an officer is dismissed (and this includes simply on a discipline without a criminal conviction) the case will be referred to the PCC and they will decide !!! Shocking really and just another kick in the plums for those still serving.

Red,

Can you reference any indication that the benchmark or tolerance for forfeiture will be lowered, or was it just the administrative decision making process that you were implying?

See the Metropolitan Police Federation website.

Any officer subject to dismissal will have their case referred to The Mayor's Office for Police and Crime who will consider forfeiture of their pension.

As it stands today forfeiture can only be considered in very strict circumstances - treason, breach of The Official Secrets Act, etc.

Pension Regs are being re-written for the 2015 scheme, I expect this is part and parcel.

Non - Met officers would, I assume, be referred to the local PCC.

There is no reference to the standard being lowered for forfeiture, but I expect it will be, otherwise why refer to the Mayor or PCC - at present forfeiture can only be authorised by the Home Secretary.

Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 21st December 13:29

[Derek Smith]

TooMany2cvs said:

Mmm. So badly paid, when a constable half-way up the scale is earning more than the national average...
http://www.policeoracle.com/pay_and_conditions/pol...

And if you think the Federation's "toothless", you ought to see the unions that represent the vast majority of private sector staff. Clue: They don't exist.

I'm not sure that police pay for a PC is average for the work they do. Nor for the risks they take. I accept there is no other job to compare it with as such but that is the point I was trying to make.

You must get out of your mind that the federation is in any way similar to a union. It is a department of the force, a management tool. It was established to negotiate with the government on pay and conditions but even this minor function - which was normally ignored in any case - has been removed. Despite it being a force requirement, like HR for instance, it is not paid for by the government. They will no longer fund the officers who perform their role for them. They put no money towards it.

In the late 70s, when pay was terrible, much lower than average wage, there were actions by police officers in metropolitan areas. In London officers in cars would refuse to take out cars some mornings. The unit I was on, a City of London firearms unit, used to cover the inner area together with the two City patrol cars.

There were threats but the problem with threats is that they have to be backed up by something. All the Met drivers did was to follow the regulations. In those days, the force relied on the goodwill of officers, and that is very much like it is today. So they would take out a car without doing those checks that were required by the regs.

The stupidist bit was that the officers who followed the regs were threatened with having their driving permits removed. That one obviously showed a lot of thought.

Despite being shafted by this government, there is till considerable goodwill being shown. What will happen when the next rioting occurs one wonders if officers will still be happy to spend days away from home, with limited reimbursement and poor quality and limited safety equipment.

If the police go to the EU to demand the right to form a union there is no doubt it will be allowed. I know that part of the reason that officers voted against going for the right to free association was that there was the federation. But now that the government is not funding it and there might well be no full time staff, the feeling might well be that a union might well be the answer. They probably won't be allowed to strike but there many other ways a police union could put pressure on a government.

At the moment the government's spin machine has the upper edge and the full picture is not being given. However, if the threats to the legally aquired, and freely given, fed funds is in any way attacked I can't help but think things might change.

The government were upset by the fact that the fed funded the civil claim against Mitchell. With all the power in their hands there is every possibility that May, with her intent to challenge for the leadership very apparent, she might do something else really stupid.

[Ginge R]

Elroy Blue said:

What exactly do you think the Fed can do. If you don't like what your employer does, you have the full range of industrial rights open to you. Police have NONE. Not one.

So please list what action the Fed can take. Tell us what they can do around pay negotiation, pension rights, working hours, working conditions, postings. (I'll give you a hint....nothing)

You can't have it both ways. Earlier in this thread, didn't you suggest to someone who didn't have a defined benefit pension that if that wanted one, they could join plod? Similarly, if you wanted a union, you could have become a firefighter..?

[Ginge R]

Red 4 said:

See the Metropolitan Police Federation website.

Any officer subject to dismissal will have their case referred to The Mayor's Office for Police and Crime who will consider forfeiture of their pension.

As it stands today forfeiture can only be considered in very strict circumstances - treason, breach of The Official Secrets Act, etc.

Pension Regs are being re-written for the 2015 scheme, I expect this is part and parcel.

Non - Met officers would, I assume, be referred to the local PCC.

There is no reference to the standard being lowered for forfeiture, but I expect it will be, otherwise why refer to the Mayor or PCC - at present forfeiture can only be authorised by the Home Secretary.

Edited by Red 4 on Sunday 21st December 13:29

Red,

My understanding is that pension forfeiture is not on the radar at the moment; the state clearly wants to decimate public sector FS pensions but will probably do it in larger chunks anyway..