(More) Budget Cuts and the (Proposed) 28 Day Bail Limit
Discussion
The cuts are a disgrace.
However a limit of bail is long long overdue. I say this as someone who has been kept on bail for months and months before when the officer knew they wouldn't be able to charge me - just to stick me with bail conditions. It sub justice and is wrong. I had to go back for retail over 20 times over 200 miles away. Not once would they just do it, every time they insisted I turned up. Anyone who doesn't believe this, I am willing to send a copy of the pnc record to any trusted member to prove it. Some not all, but some officers have used it as a way to abuse the system and people.
However a limit of bail is long long overdue. I say this as someone who has been kept on bail for months and months before when the officer knew they wouldn't be able to charge me - just to stick me with bail conditions. It sub justice and is wrong. I had to go back for retail over 20 times over 200 miles away. Not once would they just do it, every time they insisted I turned up. Anyone who doesn't believe this, I am willing to send a copy of the pnc record to any trusted member to prove it. Some not all, but some officers have used it as a way to abuse the system and people.
Never had any dealings with the bail process, so won't comment on that.
But cuts, my sector which is local govt is seeing further large reductions, the nhs is stretched despite being protected. Moj is trying to cut in the face of resistance from legal profession, and defence, dec, culture etc. are similarly being reduced.
That really leaves education, pensions and welfare - all of whom have far better support lined up to resist cuts than the police.
But spend has to be cut from somewhere, or we have either large tax increases, or go back to the magic money tree new labour had growing in the back garden of no. 11 downing street.
What the police and unions in general need to do is be at the table making sure cuts are workable: not outside the room complaining.
The country just does not have the wealth it thinks it should have, and the uk needs to decide what it wants from the 60% - 70% or so that's really there.
Ian
But cuts, my sector which is local govt is seeing further large reductions, the nhs is stretched despite being protected. Moj is trying to cut in the face of resistance from legal profession, and defence, dec, culture etc. are similarly being reduced.
That really leaves education, pensions and welfare - all of whom have far better support lined up to resist cuts than the police.
But spend has to be cut from somewhere, or we have either large tax increases, or go back to the magic money tree new labour had growing in the back garden of no. 11 downing street.
What the police and unions in general need to do is be at the table making sure cuts are workable: not outside the room complaining.
The country just does not have the wealth it thinks it should have, and the uk needs to decide what it wants from the 60% - 70% or so that's really there.
Ian
Ian Geary said:
What the police and unions in general need to do is be at the table making sure cuts are workable: not outside the room complaining.
.
Ian
To be at the table, you've got to be invited to it. May has frozen out the most senior Policeman in the country for the last 18 months. She hasn't bothered to speak to the head of ACPO for that long. The Tories have no interest in listening to anyone. The Police cuts are ideological. Cameron tried to do the same thing when he wrote the Sheehy report years ago under the last Tory Gov. He was shot down in flames. He's come back for unfinished business. If anybody thinks that reducing Police numbers from 140000 to 80000 isn't going to have a catastrophic effect, they are utterly deluded..
Ian
This is an interesting debate. The pot of money to be shared is finite, and appears to be shrunk overall, and by a significant amount.
Every time a cut is announced anywhere, spokespeople spring up saying the cuts will be a disaster, and it will be a disaster. Usually these claims are grossly overstated. Too much crying wolf, perhaps.
What I see of the police (custody and detainees) the majority of their time seems to be tied up with alcohol, drugs and the results of badly resourced mental illness problems. This appears to absorb at least 75% of custody time, I have no idea what goes on elsewhere.
How should the police save money. Should their budget be protected? Who else should be protested, who cut.
Every time a cut is announced anywhere, spokespeople spring up saying the cuts will be a disaster, and it will be a disaster. Usually these claims are grossly overstated. Too much crying wolf, perhaps.
What I see of the police (custody and detainees) the majority of their time seems to be tied up with alcohol, drugs and the results of badly resourced mental illness problems. This appears to absorb at least 75% of custody time, I have no idea what goes on elsewhere.
How should the police save money. Should their budget be protected? Who else should be protested, who cut.
photosnob said:
The cuts are a disgrace.
However a limit of bail is long long overdue. I say this as someone who has been kept on bail for months and months before when the officer knew they wouldn't be able to charge me - just to stick me with bail conditions. It sub justice and is wrong. I had to go back for retail over 20 times over 200 miles away. Not once would they just do it, every time they insisted I turned up. Anyone who doesn't believe this, I am willing to send a copy of the pnc record to any trusted member to prove it. Some not all, but some officers have used it as a way to abuse the system and people.
Depending what the offence was, 20 times seems excessive for anything but the most serious offences.However a limit of bail is long long overdue. I say this as someone who has been kept on bail for months and months before when the officer knew they wouldn't be able to charge me - just to stick me with bail conditions. It sub justice and is wrong. I had to go back for retail over 20 times over 200 miles away. Not once would they just do it, every time they insisted I turned up. Anyone who doesn't believe this, I am willing to send a copy of the pnc record to any trusted member to prove it. Some not all, but some officers have used it as a way to abuse the system and people.
That said, a lot of officers will know from the start that in all honesty, the chances of a prosecution are virtually none, but they have to go through the motions anyway. I'm sure some officers will pursue a personal vendetta this way, but most cases, we want you off bail and finalised almost as much as you do!
The Police budget has already been cut by over 20%. Even Theresa May's little lackey Tom Winsor, parachuted in from the railways to head the HMIC has described the way they have handled the cuts as a model for anyone else to follow. But how much is the country's security and the protection of the public worth? A Governments duty is to ensure a country has a stable society and promote law and order. What they have proposed for the next five years is truly horrendous.
On one hand 'there is no money left', the next they're increasing the aid budget to £13 billion. The Police budget is quite a small one and the cuts don't give a big saving in monetary terms. But they do devastate their ability to provide a service to the public. Despite what the usual troll on PH come out with, the vast majority of Officers want to do the best they can. But there is no meat left to trim. No fat, no gristle, no marrow, nothing.
"But crime is down and the frontline is protected". Either May is deluded or she's a liar. I'm not inclined to think she's ignorant to the damage she's doing (she seems to relish it). So unsurprisingly, I think she and those around her are liars.
On one hand 'there is no money left', the next they're increasing the aid budget to £13 billion. The Police budget is quite a small one and the cuts don't give a big saving in monetary terms. But they do devastate their ability to provide a service to the public. Despite what the usual troll on PH come out with, the vast majority of Officers want to do the best they can. But there is no meat left to trim. No fat, no gristle, no marrow, nothing.
"But crime is down and the frontline is protected". Either May is deluded or she's a liar. I'm not inclined to think she's ignorant to the damage she's doing (she seems to relish it). So unsurprisingly, I think she and those around her are liars.
Thanks mk3. I know that was exceptional, but it did leave a sour taste in my mouth so makes me feel like there should be something in place.
Anyway - if we truly need these cuts they need to refuse the workload. Can start by decrimalising cannabis
And other drugs which as a general rule are less harmful than alcohol. Also impose conditions whereby fights outside bars result in the bar being closed. You will soon see them turning away drunks and not serving people until they are falling over.
Anyway - if we truly need these cuts they need to refuse the workload. Can start by decrimalising cannabis
And other drugs which as a general rule are less harmful than alcohol. Also impose conditions whereby fights outside bars result in the bar being closed. You will soon see them turning away drunks and not serving people until they are falling over.
photosnob said:
Anyway - if we truly need these cuts they need to refuse the workload. Can start by decrimalising cannabis
And other drugs which as a general rule are less harmful than alcohol. Also impose conditions whereby fights outside bars result in the bar being closed. You will soon see them turning away drunks and not serving people until they are falling over.
Then you need to speak to your MP. The Police don't make the law, they enforce it.And other drugs which as a general rule are less harmful than alcohol. Also impose conditions whereby fights outside bars result in the bar being closed. You will soon see them turning away drunks and not serving people until they are falling over.
eldar said:
This is an interesting debate. The pot of money to be shared is finite, and appears to be shrunk overall, and by a significant amount.
Every time a cut is announced anywhere, spokespeople spring up saying the cuts will be a disaster, and it will be a disaster. Usually these claims are grossly overstated. Too much crying wolf, perhaps.
What I see of the police (custody and detainees) the majority of their time seems to be tied up with alcohol, drugs and the results of badly resourced mental illness problems. This appears to absorb at least 75% of custody time, I have no idea what goes on elsewhere.
How should the police save money. Should their budget be protected? Who else should be protested, who cut.
Given that we don't have as money as we would like to have, I would say that our needs for police, hospitals, schools, courts and prisons are greater than our needs for nukes, Eurofighters, and maybe high speed train lines, to mention just a few things. Every time a cut is announced anywhere, spokespeople spring up saying the cuts will be a disaster, and it will be a disaster. Usually these claims are grossly overstated. Too much crying wolf, perhaps.
What I see of the police (custody and detainees) the majority of their time seems to be tied up with alcohol, drugs and the results of badly resourced mental illness problems. This appears to absorb at least 75% of custody time, I have no idea what goes on elsewhere.
How should the police save money. Should their budget be protected? Who else should be protested, who cut.
Breadvan72 said:
Given that we don't have as money as we would like to have, I would say that our needs for police, hospitals, schools, courts and prisons are greater than our needs for nukes, Eurofighters, and maybe high speed train lines, to mention just a few things.
I'm not going to argue with that..The 'problem' is that there is money floating around, if Teresa could solve the Op's issues by using the private sector then I'm sure funding would appear
Breadvan72 said:
Given that we don't have as money as we would like to have, I would say that our needs for police, hospitals, schools, courts and prisons are greater than our needs for nukes, Eurofighters, and maybe high speed train lines, to mention just a few things.
High speed trains, certainly, likewise Boris's vanity South Bank footbridge, and similar. Defence, less so, but not exempt - there is too much uncertainty around to scrap too much.I really don't know what the answer is. Spending is going up, revenue isn't matching it and something has to change. Any change is going to hurt someone.
Another major issue for some forces is the disproportionate nature of the funding cuts. The 20% cut in central funding doesn't tell the full story.
Police budgets are made up from central funding, the precept (council tax), and something else IIRC.
The % of total police funding varies from force to force between the three. Those in poorer areas receive a fair bit less precept, and rely more heavily on the central funding. So the 20% of the central funding proportion amounts to a greater proportion of the over all funding.
I'm not really political, but it's very Tory to be hitting the poorer areas of the country harder than the affluent ones.
Police budgets are made up from central funding, the precept (council tax), and something else IIRC.
The % of total police funding varies from force to force between the three. Those in poorer areas receive a fair bit less precept, and rely more heavily on the central funding. So the 20% of the central funding proportion amounts to a greater proportion of the over all funding.
I'm not really political, but it's very Tory to be hitting the poorer areas of the country harder than the affluent ones.
eldar said:
High speed trains, certainly, likewise Boris's vanity South Bank footbridge, and similar. Defence, less so, but not exempt - there is too much uncertainty around to scrap too much.
I really don't know what the answer is. Spending is going up, revenue isn't matching it and something has to change. Any change is going to hurt someone.
Westminster would be a good place to start.I really don't know what the answer is. Spending is going up, revenue isn't matching it and something has to change. Any change is going to hurt someone.
La Liga said:
Another major issue for some forces is the disproportionate nature of the funding cuts. The 20% cut in central funding doesn't tell the full story.
Police budgets are made up from central funding, the precept (council tax), and something else IIRC.
The % of total police funding varies from force to force between the three. Those in poorer areas receive a fair bit less precept, and rely more heavily on the central funding. So the 20% of the central funding proportion amounts to a greater proportion of the over all funding.
I'm not really political, but it's very Tory to be hitting the poorer areas of the country harder than the affluent ones.
it;s not necessarily 'poorer' areas itl;s none metropolitan areas and sparsely populated areas that have problems, especially where you have lots of none metros and lots of rural together without any Metropolitan areas ... like the East Midlands ... Police budgets are made up from central funding, the precept (council tax), and something else IIRC.
The % of total police funding varies from force to force between the three. Those in poorer areas receive a fair bit less precept, and rely more heavily on the central funding. So the 20% of the central funding proportion amounts to a greater proportion of the over all funding.
I'm not really political, but it's very Tory to be hitting the poorer areas of the country harder than the affluent ones.
When there are cuts in public services the headlines are always the same.
NHS cuts - fewer nurses.
Police - fewer police officers.
But it not as simple as that, as we all know.
How about cutting the waste, the top heavy management or any other thing that doesn't actually do the job that the service is there to do.
My local police force is currently advertising for a Internal Communications Officer - £21,309 - £23,277
I agree with carinaman when he say that real criminal are going free but the automatic prosecution of motorist is rising.
NHS cuts - fewer nurses.
Police - fewer police officers.
But it not as simple as that, as we all know.
How about cutting the waste, the top heavy management or any other thing that doesn't actually do the job that the service is there to do.
My local police force is currently advertising for a Internal Communications Officer - £21,309 - £23,277
I agree with carinaman when he say that real criminal are going free but the automatic prosecution of motorist is rising.
La Liga said:
I'm not really political, but it's very Tory to be hitting the poorer areas of the country harder than the affluent ones.
Not quite that simple. I live in a good, old fashioned, solid Labour working class area. The council tax, and police precept is already high by national standards. The proposed cuts, in real terms seem to about on par with the the rest of the country. There is little outcry about the police cuts, much more about social care - mental care, health generally and the maternity unit. Our MP (labour) doesn't appear worried about policing. I doubt he'd change much, no votes in it. The Police continue to shoot themselves in the foot by continually appearing to achieve the arbitary targets set for them. All activity is skewed so that the only things that get done are those things that are being measured at the time, rather than the things that really need doing.
The cynical manipulation of the crime figures to achieve crime reduction targets is really no different to any other form of creative accounting in other sectors. But, the false reality it creates, enables Chief Constables, PCC's and the Home Secretary to tell the public, what a marvelous job they are all doing in these straitened times.
Despite the OP himself being as busy as a one armed juggler, logic dictates the sad fact that police resources will continue to be cut until there is a noticeable and sustained rise in reported crime, or an increase in civil unrest.
The cynical manipulation of the crime figures to achieve crime reduction targets is really no different to any other form of creative accounting in other sectors. But, the false reality it creates, enables Chief Constables, PCC's and the Home Secretary to tell the public, what a marvelous job they are all doing in these straitened times.
Despite the OP himself being as busy as a one armed juggler, logic dictates the sad fact that police resources will continue to be cut until there is a noticeable and sustained rise in reported crime, or an increase in civil unrest.
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