Ticket in Limited Speed Hire Vehicle

Ticket in Limited Speed Hire Vehicle

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Discussion

Dammit

3,790 posts

207 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
GoneAnon said:
The V5 shows if it is a goods vehicle or a car. Look for N1 - that's a van!

Vito is still available as a Traveliner. No VAT recovery (unless bought exclusively for business use), higher road tax, and car speed limit just like the Viano.

Vito panel van and Dualiner are commercials, allow VAT recovery for VAT-registered buyers, have van road tax, and get the lower speed limit.

And for the pedants, I know it is Vehicle Excise Duty but if I MUST pay tax to use my car on the road, I don't care what you want to call it because, to me, it is road tax. End of.
Logically then it would be car (or van) tax, surely? You don't have to pay it to be on the road (or you'd find the police having a field day at Zebra crossings), it's only required for certain classes of vehicle.

Djtemeka

1,802 posts

191 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
If the original offence was for 74mph then I'm assuming that the speedo would have read closer to 80 anyway. Once at 70+ the acceleration on a van slows down anyway. Her foot was pretty heavy then biggrin

BMWBen

4,899 posts

200 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
MrsMiggins said:
No help to the OP, but the last van I hired was a 9 seat VW Transporter and it had a small sticker in the top corner of the windscreen that showed the applicable speed limits for the vehicle.

I already knew it was subject to lower limits, but the other 2 drivers didn't know anything about it and in fact refused to believe it was the case until I pointed out that it was on the sticker in the van.
That sticker was probably wrong - this is how ludicrous these different speed limits are:

My VW transporter was a "diesel car" on the V5 and was subject to normal car speed limits, because it had factory windows and seatbelts in the back. I'm pretty sure any 9 seater minibus style transporter would be the same. It's not legally a van. The hire company probably stuck their standard "van limits" sticker on it.

So according to the law, the same chassis, with the same laden weight, is less dangerous when being driven full of live humans that it is planks of wood. Discuss.

P.S. I choose to ignore such stupid laws, and would suggest others do too.

Edited by BMWBen on Wednesday 31st December 09:37

MrsMiggins

2,808 posts

234 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
I think the Transporter's unladen weight means it's too heavy to qualify as dual purpose, but I could be wrong.

Variable limits like these are a bit ridiculous given the capabilities of these vehicles these days. Maybe it made sense 30 years ago? When did these limits come into force originally?

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
MrsMiggins said:
I think the Transporter's unladen weight means it's too heavy to qualify as dual purpose, but I could be wrong.

Variable limits like these are a bit ridiculous given the capabilities of these vehicles these days. Maybe it made sense 30 years ago? When did these limits come into force originally?
a 9 seater is a 'car' 60/70/70

a qualifying crew cab or qualifying 4*4 is a dual purpose vehicle 60/70/70

a none qualifying crew cab or a plain van is a van 50/60/70



GT6k

856 posts

161 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
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The problem is that when you hire a car/van/people carrier/minibus you aren't able to see the V5 so how do you know what class it is in. I hired a people carrier last week and what arrived was a Tourneo Connect. There was no authoritative source I could turn to to determine it taxation class. And if I was stopped at the side of the road how would I prove to the BiB that was is in fact a car.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
GT6k said:
The problem is that when you hire a car/van/people carrier/minibus you aren't able to see the V5 so how do you know what class it is in. I hired a people carrier last week and what arrived was a Tourneo Connect. There was no authoritative source I could turn to to determine it taxation class. And if I was stopped at the side of the road how would I prove to the BiB that was is in fact a car.
a 9 seater regardless of what it is based on is a car - even if it;s based on a full sized transit / trafic / transporter

a dual purpose vehicle is a van meeting certain dimensional requirements with a second row of seats and a set of wiindows behinds the B pillar and a rear window

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
The other problem for people arguing that vehicle category is shown on the V5C, apart from the fact that you don't get to see it when renting a vehicle, is that in the case of dual purpose vehicles, DVLA don't even have this as a category to show on the V5.

How many times do we have to say this, , but the relevant speed and vehicle regs make absolutely no reference to DVLA classification or taxation class or Vat or HRMC rules or anything else. It's a simple vehicle description plus usually a weight limit.

In the case of dual purpose vehicles it's a rather precise definition. In the case of car derived vans it's virtually non existent. Problem is various organisations put their own interpretations on these.

It needs sorting.

GT6k

856 posts

161 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
mph1977, I am not saying you are wrong but, perhaps you should explain this to Bedfordshire police as they say that only car derived vans under 2tonnes gross weight are treated as cars, all Tourneo Connects have gross weigh over 2t. It is this confusion from official sources and the lack of a clear definition that bothers me.
http://www.bedfordshire.police.uk/advice_centre/ca...


mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
GT6k said:
mph1977, I am not saying you are wrong but, perhaps you should explain this to Bedfordshire police as they say that only car derived vans under 2tonnes gross weight are treated as cars, all Tourneo Connects have gross weigh over 2t. It is this confusion from official sources and the lack of a clear definition that bothers me.
http://www.bedfordshire.police.uk/advice_centre/ca...
a connect van is not a car derived van

a tourneo connect is a car , as is a LR discovery or an S class Merc ...

mybrainhurts

90,809 posts

254 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
Red Devil said:
How hard can it be to attach a sticker to the vehicle* and include this chart as part of the hire paperwork?
Hirer signs a declaration that they been given it, have read it, and understood it.



 * Granted it would be an issue for a bike but there are far fewer rental firms than for cars.
What about cars towing trailers?

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
GT6k said:
mph1977, I am not saying you are wrong but, perhaps you should explain this to Bedfordshire police as they say that only car derived vans under 2tonnes gross weight are treated as cars, all Tourneo Connects have gross weigh over 2t. It is this confusion from official sources and the lack of a clear definition that bothers me.
http://www.bedfordshire.police.uk/advice_centre/ca...
a connect van is not a car derived van

a tourneo connect is a car , as is a LR discovery or an S class Merc ...
technically in the speed regulations it's classed as a passenger vehicle <3050 kgs which means the higher "car" limits.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
FiF said:
mph1977 said:
GT6k said:
mph1977, I am not saying you are wrong but, perhaps you should explain this to Bedfordshire police as they say that only car derived vans under 2tonnes gross weight are treated as cars, all Tourneo Connects have gross weigh over 2t. It is this confusion from official sources and the lack of a clear definition that bothers me.
http://www.bedfordshire.police.uk/advice_centre/ca...
a connect van is not a car derived van

a tourneo connect is a car , as is a LR discovery or an S class Merc ...
technically in the speed regulations it's classed as a passenger vehicle <3050 kgs which means the higher "car" limits.
if it's got less than 8+driver it's a car

PCV <3050 covers some D1 vehicles

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
The Road Traffic Regulation Act along with other regulations does not refer to cars. The term used is passenger vehicle, Iie a vehicle constructed solely to carry passengers and their effects.

The construction and use regulations refer to motor car but that splits into more than one category, a passenger vehicle as above, not adapted to carry more than 8 passengers excl driver and ulw <3050 kgs. However a second clause under motor car is a vehicle adapted to carry goods or burden again ulw < 3050kgs. There's a third category under motor cars other vehicles not conforming to either of those two descriptions but with a different weight limit.

So passenger vehicle it is as far as the speed regs are concerned. If people wish to use, the shorthand term car, they are not correct.

SS2.

14,455 posts

237 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
FiF said:
How many times do we have to say this, but the relevant speed and vehicle regs make absolutely no reference to DVLA classification or taxation class or VAT or HMRC rules or anything else.
Not enough, it seems.

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

261 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
Red Devil said:
How hard can it be to attach a sticker to the vehicle* and include this chart as part of the hire paperwork?
Hirer signs a declaration that they been given it, have read it, and understood it.



 * Granted it would be an issue for a bike but there are far fewer rental firms than for cars.
I can show you a roadsign that contradicts that....on the A-90 just off the Friarton Bridge heading East....

Nigel Worc's

8,121 posts

187 months

Wednesday 31st December 2014
quotequote all
GoneAnon said:
The V5 shows if it is a goods vehicle or a car. Look for N1 - that's a van!
No it doesn't !

I have an 06 plate Caddy, which is plated and shows a max laden weight of 2205 KGs.

My V5C states "Car Derived Van"

GoneAnon

1,703 posts

151 months

Thursday 1st January 2015
quotequote all
Nigel Worc's said:
No it doesn't !

I have an 06 plate Caddy, which is plated and shows a max laden weight of 2205 KGs.

My V5C states "Car Derived Van"
It will say that at D5 for Body Type.

Look further down to J Vehicle Category
M1 is a Passenger Carrying Vehicle
N1 is a Goods Vehicle up to 3500kg GVW

As the GVW for your Caddy is over 2000kg you are restricted to van speed limits anyway.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Thursday 1st January 2015
quotequote all
GoneAnon said:
Nigel Worc's said:
No it doesn't !

I have an 06 plate Caddy, which is plated and shows a max laden weight of 2205 KGs.

My V5C states "Car Derived Van"
It will say that at D5 for Body Type.

Look further down to J Vehicle Category
M1 is a Passenger Carrying Vehicle
N1 is a Goods Vehicle up to 3500kg GVW

As the GVW for your Caddy is over 2000kg you are restricted to van speed limits anyway.
I think that in one of these attrition loop threads we'd already determined that Nigel's Caddy was subject to "van" limits. Unless my memory is wrong.

It could be that Nigel posted the above simply to illustrate what a mess it all is.

It still doesn't alter the point that, keeping firmly on topic, it doesn't alter the fact that, in practical or legal terms, it matters not one stuff what the V5C says, as firstly the hirer doesn't see it, it's whether the vehicle meets the description as defined in the regulations or not.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Thursday 1st January 2015
quotequote all
Just to add more into the mess. From Sussex safer roads partnership.

Q. Does the logbook (V5C) show whether my vehicle is a car-derived van or not?

A. Yes.  The V5C will give the body type as ‘car derived van’ if it is a CDV. If your V5C does not say ‘car-derived van’, it will clearly indicate what type of vehicle it is and you should be aware of the appropriate speed limit restrictions.You’ll also see that car-derived vans are classified as N1 on the V5C’s ‘type approval category’ (field J on the form).

Q. My V5C says ‘car-derived van’.  What speed may I drive up to?

A. If you own a ‘car-derived van’, your speed restrictions are the same as for cars .  Remember – limits are just that, not targets!-


Yet with the weights on the Nigel's vehicle he would be foolish to follow that advice above. Be an interesting test case to run through the courts if he were to be nabbed in Sussex. Off topic as he owns it and it's not hired.

But still shows what a dog's breakfast this all is. Needs sorting.