Speed Cameras, are they for safety, or revenue?

[vonhosen]

Phatboy317 said:

vonhosen said:

Surely the aim has been that the combination of measures reduce KSIs (amongst other goals) against increasing use.
It's been working.

That wouldn't be conjecture now, would it?

No, the government published that they were setting themselves a goal of reducing KSIs.
The stats show they've been reducing.

[singlecoil]

Hungrymc said:

Stuff

I note your failure to provide one provable instance of a person saying that driving at or below the speed limit is automatically safe.

[Hungrymc]

Von, so you don't believe that what gets monitored and regulated most vigorously becomes the primary focus..... Ok, but it's a fundamental cornerstone of managing people's behviour.

[Hungrymc]

singlecoil said:

I note your failure to provide one provable instance of a person saying that driving at or below the speed limit is automatically safe.

You are making my point:

What I said was people associate driving slowly with driving safely (after all, that's what they keep being told, and in itself, it is a unreasonable statement - if I'm going to have an accident, I'd much rather it be at low speed).

What you've done is what I suspect many people do (particularly the general masses who don't really think about driving and don't take it too seriously - I don't think you are in this category by the way). People automatically extrapolate the point to being a direct correlation. If you don't bring balance and put equal emphasis on the other (maybe more important) aspects of safe driving, you end up with so many people dumbing safety down to this one and most heavily publicised and policed issue.

I honestly believe it was started with good intentions. Unfortunately, as is often the case, it's a gross over simplification that has caused unintended negative impacts.

[Hungrymc]

I find the first paragraph very misleading - the accidents described are going to be very closely linked to observation and concerntration. This is my issue, people need to be encouraged to drive safely, not just drive within the speed limits.

Edited to add : driving at a safe speed (which is generally within the limit) is a factor, but it's only one and can not be more important than good observation, concerntration and good decision making. It is however the main focus of policing because it's easy.... Dumbing the whole process down.

Edited by Hungrymc on Sunday 25th January 08:23

[Devil2575]

Hungrymc said:

You are making my point:

What I said was people associate driving slowly with driving safely (after all, that's what they keep being told, and in itself, it is a unreasonable statement - if I'm going to have an accident, I'd much rather it be at low speed).

What you've done is what I suspect many people do (particularly the general masses who don't really think about driving and don't take it too seriously - I don't think you are in this category by the way). People automatically extrapolate the point to being a direct correlation. If you don't bring balance and put equal emphasis on the other (maybe more important) aspects of safe driving, you end up with so many people dumbing safety down to this one and most heavily publicised and policed issue.

I honestly believe it was started with good intentions. Unfortunately, as is often the case, it's a gross over simplification that has caused unintended negative impacts.

The problem is that this view is at best a hypothesis. For it to be anything more you need to provide actual evidence that there have been any negative impacts.

[Hungrymc]

I don't need to provide any evidence that people focus on what is mesured and policed. It's how people are managed in every aspect of behavior management. Do your own reading on the subject, it's interesting.

Singlecoil, you may be enjoying it - but you introduced the word automatically - the perfect example of the thought process this campaign instigates.

[vonhosen]

Hungrymc said:

I don't need to provide any evidence that people focus on what is mesured and policed. It's how people are managed in every aspect of behavior management. Do your own reading on the subject, it's interesting.

Singlecoil, you may be enjoying it - but you introduced the word automatically - the perfect example of the thought process this campaign instigates.

So when I set & forget with my cruise control how am I now concentrating on my speed so that I don't exceed the limit?
It's not something I'm focusing on at all is it?
What I'm doing is looking for/managing hazards.

[singlecoil]

Hungrymc said:

Singlecoil, you may be enjoying it - but you introduced the word automatically - the perfect example of the thought process this campaign instigates.

The problem with arguing with you is that you have constructed a 'reality' in your head which seems completely real to you, and everyone that disagrees with you has been somehow 'programmed'. The way to solve this problem is to not take part.

[Digby]

singlecoil said:

Digby said:

Mr GrimNasty said:

Mobile site popping up around a bend to do streams of commuters at 36mph on a road that was 40mph before and had no bad history associated with speed - revenue and jobs.

Yet, despite how obvious these situations became and despite some of those of great importance in camera & police circles suggesting this to be the case, there are those here who absolutely refuse to accept it.If you try to convince them in any way, you are likely to be branded a conspiracy theorist.

I would be embarrassed to display such an incredible lack of objectivity, but that does seem to be a trend on here.

All of that could be said, and rather more accurately, about people from, shall we call it, your side of the argument. It's all because of a very basic misconception on your part. You believe that speed cameras are supposed to be like a kind of chicane, to slow people down in areas where speeding would be dangerous.And that whenever they are used in areas that you do not believe to be dangerous, they are there purely for revenue generation.

But that's wrong.

My views are here for all to read and I see it from both sides.You still do not.Certain people have agreed the system is open to abuse due to 'people' being involved and that is proven the world over.Just because you choose to ignore some of those involved with the camera industry suggesting it's very often about targets and cash and that there are better systems, doesn't make YOU correct.Can you give me a single reason I would take your word over theirs? Just one?

You just choose to ignore any suggestions that the system can and has been abused, where as I fully accept and appreciate many of the cameras and systems put in place, but questions others.Once again, you are saying that everyone and everything about the speed camera industry is perfect and isn't the slightest bit open to any from of non-ethical practice.Given that hardly any idustry is untouched in that department, you should probably just admit you are wrong on this topic, too.

[Devil2575]

Hungrymc said:

I don't need to provide any evidence that people focus on what is mesured and policed. It's how people are managed in every aspect of behavior management. Do your own reading on the subject, it's interesting.

You need to provide evidence that there is a problem. Even if the issue is as you say you need to show a negative consequence.

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

Phatboy317 said:

vonhosen said:

Hungrymc said:

There is plenty of evidence that people focus on what is measured and monitored. An unfortunate consequence of a huge focus on one aspect is that the other factors suffer - the key issue takes priority. If this has been covered and comprehensively knocked down, I appologise, (and am genuinely surprised). Please point me towards it.

There are more parking fines & people employed in their enforcement than any other motoring activity, does that make it the most important focus of people's car use?

No, but it makes it the most important focus of where they park

With the amount of fines collected it would appear people don't give it as much thought as they should.

You don't have to leave your car anywhere to get a fine.I was recently fined for "stopping on a red route" simply for doing a u-turn, but having to wait for just a few seconds to complete the turn due to a motorbike and a bus approaching.On appeal, despite having what appeared to be lovely HD images, they could see "No evidence of what I described" How convenient.

I seem to spend more of my time in city centres focusing on signs / street furniture / bus lane labeling etc due to the vultures wanting to trip me up, than I do on anything else.

[allergictocheese]

Here's an interesting philosophical question for a Sunday morning;

If it could be proven that speed cameras had increased the overall number of collisions on our roads, yet due to the lower speeds involved, had actually reduced total KSIs, would this be acceptable, and why?

[Digby]

vonhosen said:

Hungrymc said:

I don't need to provide any evidence that people focus on what is mesured and policed. It's how people are managed in every aspect of behavior management. Do your own reading on the subject, it's interesting.

Singlecoil, you may be enjoying it - but you introduced the word automatically - the perfect example of the thought process this campaign instigates.

So when I set & forget with my cruise control how am I now concentrating on my speed so that I don't exceed the limit?
It's not something I'm focusing on at all is it?
What I'm doing is looking for/managing hazards.

Where do you live? I get to use cruise probably once a month on long hauls.Utterly pointless anywhere else in the S.E. the vast majority of the time.
I used to use it a lot more before all the variable speed limits and 'managed motorways' cropped up, though.Now you need to focus on your speed again every few hundred yards.

[Phatboy317]

vonhosen said:

Phatboy317 said:

vonhosen said:

Surely the aim has been that the combination of measures reduce KSIs (amongst other goals) against increasing use.
It's been working.

That wouldn't be conjecture now, would it?

No, the government published that they were setting themselves a goal of reducing KSIs.
The stats show they've been reducing.

The stats show they've been reducing for more than half a century.
Show me a clear and unambiguous quantification of the role of cameras in that.

[2013BRM]

The topic has almost gained religious levels of belief, just as a challenged Christian uses the standard 'it is not given to us to understand' the speed camera supporter says 'well anyone who is posting on a motoring forum cannot be objective' You simply will not budge them.
All I can do is repeat what I see. Most of my working week consists of being driven from Duxford in an executive car to an airport, driving around Europe then coming back for the weekend. Speeding occurs everywhere and cameras used to catch them, the UK seems to be on a par with Holland and Germany on the amount apart from SPECS, we love those over here.
There are 2 main differences to me, 1 is the standard of driving and the other the abilty to simply get anywhere. Driving standards here are appalling and not getting better. Nearly every trip to and from a UK airport involves delay due to an accident and a weekend drive the same. Yesterday I was rerouted due to an accident on A505, saw a woman nearly cause one by doing a 3 point turn on the same road and another collision closing the Sawston bypass.
I cant recall the last time that happened whilst driving abroad

[2013BRM]

The topic has almost gained religious levels of belief, just as a challenged Christian uses the standard 'it is not given to us to understand' the speed camera supporter says 'well anyone who is posting on a motoring forum cannot be objective' You simply will not budge them.
All I can do is repeat what I see. Most of my working week consists of being driven from Duxford in an executive car to an airport, driving around Europe then coming back for the weekend. Speeding occurs everywhere and cameras used to catch them, the UK seems to be on a par with Holland and Germany on the amount apart from SPECS, we love those over here.
There are 2 main differences to me, 1 is the standard of driving and the other the abilty to simply get anywhere. Driving standards here are appalling and not getting better. Nearly every trip to and from a UK airport involves delay due to an accident and a weekend drive the same. Yesterday I was rerouted due to an accident on A505, saw a woman nearly cause one by doing a 3 point turn on the same road and another collision closing the Sawston bypass.
I cant recall the last time that happened whilst driving abroad

[Phatboy317]

vonhosen said:

So when I set & forget with my cruise control how am I now concentrating on my speed so that I don't exceed the limit?
It's not something I'm focusing on at all is it?
What I'm doing is looking for/managing hazards.

You've just provided a good example of the dumbing down that's being discussed.
A good part of the process of driving safely is actively adjusting your speed according to conditions, and not just setting your cruise control to some arbitrary speed and forgetting about it.
Besides which, it's only really on largely empty roads when you can use cruise control for long periods,
and in those conditions your speed is largely irrelevant from the safety aspect.

[Phatboy317]

2013BRM said:

...the speed camera supporter says 'well anyone who is posting on a motoring forum cannot be objective'

Nobody can be fully objective on the subject of their beliefs, whatever they may be - that's unfortunately just the way our brains are hard-wired.

Besides, try posting a comment questioning speed cameras on the Brake website, for example, and see how far you get.

[Devil2575]

2013BRM said:

The topic has almost gained religious levels of belief, just as a challenged Christian uses the standard 'it is not given to us to understand' the speed camera supporter says 'well anyone who is posting on a motoring forum cannot be objective' You simply will not budge them.
All I can do is repeat what I see. Most of my working week consists of being driven from Duxford in an executive car to an airport, driving around Europe then coming back for the weekend. Speeding occurs everywhere and cameras used to catch them, the UK seems to be on a par with Holland and Germany on the amount apart from SPECS, we love those over here.
There are 2 main differences to me, 1 is the standard of driving and the other the abilty to simply get anywhere. Driving standards here are appalling and not getting better. Nearly every trip to and from a UK airport involves delay due to an accident and a weekend drive the same. Yesterday I was rerouted due to an accident on A505, saw a woman nearly cause one by doing a 3 point turn on the same road and another collision closing the Sawston bypass.
I cant recall the last time that happened whilst driving abroad

A perfect example of anecdotal evidence to prove driving standards are poor.

I could equally say that my sister lived in Germany near a unrestricted section of autobahn and commented on how often it was closed due to accidents.

Both are equally meaningless in the absence of data.

How do Ksi stats in the Uk compare to our European neighbours?

I despair slightly when I hear all this talk of poor driving standards. We have some of the world's safest roads and they are getting safer. These are facts backed up by real data.

Your comment about religious belief is incredibly ironic given that I yet to see any proper evidence to support any of the claims being made. A Christian might say God is real because I felt his presence. This is a perfect example of using personal experience as evidence. It's no different to "I know driving standards are declining because I've been driving for 30 years and seen it".