Ahead from right turn lane
Discussion
LoonR1 said:
I'm not sure I'd use a right turn only lane to go straight on in the car very often, although I'm sure I've done it occasionally in the last. However, on the bike I will do it all the time at every queue. I filter past everyone to the front without fail. Is that inconsiderate, or gaining an advantage? The reason I ask is that I was both taught to do it during my lessons and advised that I would fail if I didn't. There was no restriction on use of lanes either, in fact use of a right turn only lane to filter past, was encouraged to create a gap between you amd the cars you are filtering past.
Filtering isn't what we are talking about, that's apples v oranges.vonhosen said:
LoonR1 said:
I'm not sure I'd use a right turn only lane to go straight on in the car very often, although I'm sure I've done it occasionally in the last. However, on the bike I will do it all the time at every queue. I filter past everyone to the front without fail. Is that inconsiderate, or gaining an advantage? The reason I ask is that I was both taught to do it during my lessons and advised that I would fail if I didn't. There was no restriction on use of lanes either, in fact use of a right turn only lane to filter past, was encouraged to create a gap between you amd the cars you are filtering past.
Filtering isn't what we are talking about, that's apples v oranges.I do it all the time, not right/left turn only lanes but on multi-lane, traffic light-controlled roundabouts, of which there are plenty where I am!
I know the timing of the lights and therefore hang back about a car length or so and get a rolling start for when they change. Nobody is inconvenienced & I'm not stuck behind more traffic than I need to be. If, however, the other guy gets a good start too, I'm quite prepared to have to go around the roundabout again rather than REALLY floor it in the hope I get past or slam the brakes on to get back to the lane I want. That, I think, is the acid test; if you can't do it cleanly, be prepared to suck up the consequences.
As SK425 said, the fact you could potentially get into trouble when clearly no-one was "inconvenienced" is ridiculous, but then I'm fully aware of how ludicrous some of our laws, and how they are enforced, actually are.
Centurion07 said:
vonhosen said:
LoonR1 said:
I'm not sure I'd use a right turn only lane to go straight on in the car very often, although I'm sure I've done it occasionally in the last. However, on the bike I will do it all the time at every queue. I filter past everyone to the front without fail. Is that inconsiderate, or gaining an advantage? The reason I ask is that I was both taught to do it during my lessons and advised that I would fail if I didn't. There was no restriction on use of lanes either, in fact use of a right turn only lane to filter past, was encouraged to create a gap between you amd the cars you are filtering past.
Filtering isn't what we are talking about, that's apples v oranges.I do it all the time, not right/left turn only lanes but on multi-lane, traffic light-controlled roundabouts, of which there are plenty where I am!
I know the timing of the lights and therefore hang back about a car length or so and get a rolling start for when they change. Nobody is inconvenienced & I'm not stuck behind more traffic than I need to be. If, however, the other guy gets a good start too, I'm quite prepared to have to go around the roundabout again rather than REALLY floor it in the hope I get past or slam the brakes on to get back to the lane I want. That, I think, is the acid test; if you can't do it cleanly, be prepared to suck up the consequences.
As SK said, the fact you could potentially get into trouble when clearly no-one was "inconvenienced" is ridiculous, but then I'm fully aware of how ludicrous some of our laws, and how they are enforced, actually are.
There has to be somebody inconvenienced for there to be an inconsiderate driving offence. It's just that because one person takes a view that nobody has really been inconvenienced by an action, others don't have to agree with that viewpoint.
As an aside to the issue of inconsiderate, the offence of careless is being talked about as if provided you believe you have been careful to avoid a collision or conflict with another then it can't be careless. That however is not the test for whether driving is careless. It's has the driving fallen below the standard expected of a 'competent & careful' driver. Both competent & careful!
Intentionally going into a right turn lane when wanting to go ahead can be said to fall below that standard, as I've said it would result in a serious fault & therefore failure in our test of competence.
Of course if you follow lane markings (rather than believing you are a special case & can ignore them for your own advantage) you are less likely to fall out of sync with other's views & end up in a court room with a Sec 3 charge. If you habitually go in a direction other than shown in the road markings you are more likely to end up in such a position.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 17th January 15:46
Centurion07 said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
Deliberately using a lane which is clearly marked as right turn only to overtake cars which are respecting the road markings and lanes.
The action of an impatient t
t IMO.
If they get away faster than the other traffic, is there actually an issue?The action of an impatient t
t IMO.He said it was rude & asked if it was an offence (& for that see my post above).
Centurion07 said:
If they get away faster than the other traffic, is there actually an issue?
If there are people behind you using the lane for its proper purpose (to turn right), they may miss a phase of the lights and/or opportunity to turn due to your presence at the head of the queue. Centurion07 said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
Deliberately using a lane which is clearly marked as right turn only to overtake cars which are respecting the road markings and lanes.
The action of an impatient tt IMO.
If they get away faster than the other traffic, is there actually an issue?The action of an impatient t
t IMO.t.There is usual a good reason for road markings, generally to reinforce lane discipline.
allergictocheese said:
If there are people behind you using the lane for its proper purpose (to turn right), they may miss a phase of the lights and/or opportunity to turn due to your presence at the head of the queue.
True. I've lost count of the times I've had to sit at traffic lights because someone ahead of me either wasn't paying attention or didn't accelerate quickly enough so I didn't make the green; that's why, where possible, I will take the empty lane to make sure I don't get held up (NB: I have said I do this on roundabouts rather than left/right turn only lanes although, if I'd been following a dithering learner/bus/lorry then I probably would use one.) As I said earlier, I'm fully prepared to have to compromise my journey if I can't get back into the lane I want. My success rate far outweighs the rare occasions I end up doing that.
Centurion07 said:
allergictocheese said:
If there are people behind you using the lane for its proper purpose (to turn right), they may miss a phase of the lights and/or opportunity to turn due to your presence at the head of the queue.
True. I've lost count of the times I've had to sit at traffic lights because someone ahead of me either wasn't paying attention or didn't accelerate quickly enough so I didn't make the green; that's why, where possible, I will take the empty lane to make sure I don't get held up (NB: I have said I do this on roundabouts rather than left/right turn only lanes although, if I'd been following a dithering learner/bus/lorry then I probably would use one.) As I said earlier, I'm fully prepared to have to compromise my journey if I can't get back into the lane I want. My success rate far outweighs the rare occasions I end up doing that.
vonhosen said:
When you are walking down the isle towards the tills & somebody walks faster than you past you it's an advantage but not an inconsiderate one being taken.
When you are in a queue at the till & somebody walks past you & pushes in then that can be an inconsiderate advantage.
Incosiderate & unsafe are different matters, that's why we have two separate Sec 3 offences. Careless & inconsiderate. Inconsiderate doesn't have to be unsafe.
As I always say each case would be dealt with on it's merits
I use the word 'advantage' because I'm quoting the CPS charging standards in parts. If I didn't some pedant here would say it's not what it says.
An advantage isn't a problem, where it isn't inconsiderately (towards others) gained.
Of course pushing in is rude, but as for somebody passing me in the aisle on the way to the till, they can't be said to have gained an advantage over me because we're not in a competition to see who can finish our shopping first. If it were meaningful to say that passing me gave them an advantage over me then you would also say that the person who went to the shops half an hour before me and was already at the till when I was only just walking in the front door had gained an advantage over me by starting their shopping earlier than me.When you are in a queue at the till & somebody walks past you & pushes in then that can be an inconsiderate advantage.
Incosiderate & unsafe are different matters, that's why we have two separate Sec 3 offences. Careless & inconsiderate. Inconsiderate doesn't have to be unsafe.
As I always say each case would be dealt with on it's merits
I use the word 'advantage' because I'm quoting the CPS charging standards in parts. If I didn't some pedant here would say it's not what it says.
An advantage isn't a problem, where it isn't inconsiderately (towards others) gained.
If a racing driver passes a rival on track they have gained an advantage over their rival. If they do it by cutting the corner on a chicane so they don't have to slow down, they have gained an unfair advantage over their rival. The reason that a racing driver might expect to be penalised for that sort of thing does not exist on the road (or in a supermarket).
But that's all academic since what we're talking about in supermarket terms is more like two people finishing up at different tills at the same time and leaving the shop. If the person who leaves the shop first is the one whose till happened to be further from the door, and they passed the other shopper on the way out quite politely and uneventfully, just by walking a bit faster through a piece of space plenty big enough for the both of them, that is something completely unworthy of note or comment. If they did it by shoving past, by pushing the other person out of the way, by cutting in front interfering with where the other person was trying to walk, that sort of thing - of course that's rude too.
'Advantage' can be used in different ways. I can talk about my advantage in isolation, where there is no corresponding disadvantage for someone else - so for example, if I am driving and I catch up with a slower vehicle, I could say it would be advantageous to me to overtake that vehicle when an opportunity presents because then I can continue on my way without the hold up; there is no concept in that of disadvantage for the driver of the other vehicle. Alternatively, 'advantage' can be used in a comparative way that absolutely does imply a corresponding disadvantage for someone else - as in, person A gains an advantage over person B. That sense of 'advantage' requires a context of some sort of rivalry, something A and B are competing over, something that can be won and lost.
As 9mm pointed out earlier in the thread, it is not uncommon at all for people to be thinking of their driving in exactly that sort of context. I claim no immunity to it myself, but I know full well that if I allow a competitive attitude to enter my driving and, worse, to affect my behaviour, then I have done something wrong. Earlier in the thread you talked about the people cheering in the queue. If they are cheering because they are seeing a piece of bad driving being dealt with - something that, even if not a safety concern, nonetheless interfered with someone else, forced them to adjust or compensate - then fair enough. If they are cheering simply because they think someone who cheated in the game is getting their comeuppance, they have an attitude problem that needs to be stamped on.
The reason I despise the 'gain advantage over other drivers' language is that 'advantage' must be being used in the second sense, yet the context of rivalry that is necessary to give that sense of 'advantage' any meaning is just not present in driving. Moreover, there's a fairly widespread problem on our roads of people acting as though that context is present, as though it is some sort of a race. If the CPS has a role in relation to that attitude, it is to punish it. Instead, they seem to be pandering to it.
Edited by SK425 on Sunday 18th January 20:45
SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
When you are walking down the isle towards the tills & somebody walks faster than you past you it's an advantage but not an inconsiderate one being taken.
When you are in a queue at the till & somebody walks past you & pushes in then that can be an inconsiderate advantage.
Incosiderate & unsafe are different matters, that's why we have two separate Sec 3 offences. Careless & inconsiderate. Inconsiderate doesn't have to be unsafe.
As I always say each case would be dealt with on it's merits
I use the word 'advantage' because I'm quoting the CPS charging standards in parts. If I didn't some pedant here would say it's not what it says.
An advantage isn't a problem, where it isn't inconsiderately (towards others) gained.
Of course pushing in is rude, but as for somebody passing me in the aisle on the way to the till, they can't be said to have gained an advantage over me because we're not in a competition to see who can finish our shopping first. If it were meaningful to say that passing me gave them an advantage over me then you would also say that the person who went to the shops half an hour before me and was already at the till when I was only just walking in the front door had gained an advantage over me by starting their shopping earlier than me.When you are in a queue at the till & somebody walks past you & pushes in then that can be an inconsiderate advantage.
Incosiderate & unsafe are different matters, that's why we have two separate Sec 3 offences. Careless & inconsiderate. Inconsiderate doesn't have to be unsafe.
As I always say each case would be dealt with on it's merits
I use the word 'advantage' because I'm quoting the CPS charging standards in parts. If I didn't some pedant here would say it's not what it says.
An advantage isn't a problem, where it isn't inconsiderately (towards others) gained.
If a racing driver passes a rival on track they have gained an advantage over their rival. If they do it by cutting the corner on a chicane so they don't have to slow down, they have gained an unfair advantage over their rival. The reason that a racing driver might expect to be penalised for that sort of thing does not exist on the road (or in a supermarket).
But that's all academic since what we're talking about in supermarket terms is more like two people finishing up at different tills at the same time and leaving the shop. If the person who leaves the shop first is the one whose till happened to be further from the door, and they passed the other shopper on the way out quite politely and uneventfully, just by walking a bit faster through a piece of space plenty big enough for the both of them, that is something completely unworthy of note or comment. If they did it by shoving past, by pushing the other person out of the way, by cutting in front interfering with where the other person was trying to walk, that sort of thing - of course that's rude too.
'Advantage' can be used in different ways. I can talk about my advantage in isolation, where there is no corresponding disadvantage for someone else - so for example, if I am driving and I catch up with a slower vehicle, I could say it would be advantageous to me to overtake that vehicle when an opportunity presents, because then I can continue on my way without the hold up; there is no concept in that of disadvantage for the driver of the other vehicle. Or 'advantage' can be used in a comparative way that absolutely does imply a corresponding disadvantage for someone else - as in, person A gains an advantage over person B. That sense of 'advantage' requires a context of some sort of rivalry, something A and B are competing over, something that can be won and lost.
As 9mm pointed out earlier in the thread, it is not uncommon at all for people to be thinking of their driving in exactly that sort of context. I claim no immunity to it myself, but I know full well that if I allow a competitive attitude to enter my driving and, worse, to affect my behaviour, then I have done something wrong. Earlier in the thread you talked about the people cheering in the queue. If they are cheering because they are seeing a piece of bad driving being dealt with - something that, even if not a safety concern, nonetheless interfered with someone else, forced them to adjust or compensate - then fair enough. If they are cheering simply because they think someone who cheated in the game is getting their comeuppance, they have an attitude problem that needs to be stamped on.
The reason I despise the 'gain advantage over other drivers' language is that 'advantage' must be being used in the second sense, yet the context of rivalry that is necessary to give that sense of 'advantage' any meaning is just not present in driving. Moreover, there's a fairly widespread problem on our roads of people acting as though that context is present, as though it is some sort of a race. If the CPS has a role in relation to that attitude, it is to punish it. Instead, they seem to be pandering to it.
Failing to deal with those who gain an advantage from ignoring the rules of the road, whilst others observing have relinquished such advantage in order to observe those same rules, does little to uphold the rules or standards of behaviour expected by failing to encourage the rule breaker to change their behaviour through sanction, or encourage the rule abider that they need to continue abiding by those rules if they aren't to receive sanction.
vonhosen said:
They do indeed have a duty to bring to task those who break the rules &/or fall below the standard of competence & care expected.
Failing to deal with those who gain an advantage from ignoring the rules of the road, whilst others observing have relinquished such advantage in order to observe those same rules, does little to uphold the rules or standards of behaviour expected by failing to encourage the rule breaker to change their behaviour through sanction, or encourage the rule abider that they need to continue abiding by those rules if they aren't to receive sanction.
The rule in question is the rule against inconsiderate driving. What you've said is a circular argument which fails to address the issue that no advantage is conferred (in the sense of a corresponding disadvantage existing that might constitute the inconvenience necessary for an offence of inconsiderate driving to have been committed) by simply overtaking like this, except in the mind of someone who has brought the wrong attitude to their driving.Failing to deal with those who gain an advantage from ignoring the rules of the road, whilst others observing have relinquished such advantage in order to observe those same rules, does little to uphold the rules or standards of behaviour expected by failing to encourage the rule breaker to change their behaviour through sanction, or encourage the rule abider that they need to continue abiding by those rules if they aren't to receive sanction.
Of course, it's not just the overtaken who might have that attitude problem, the overtaker might too. If they do, that's a bad thing, but you can't conclude that they do just because they are overtaking. Do you think the CPS supposes that the only reason someone might seek to pass a slower vehicle is because they think they are in a race?
SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
They do indeed have a duty to bring to task those who break the rules &/or fall below the standard of competence & care expected.
Failing to deal with those who gain an advantage from ignoring the rules of the road, whilst others observing have relinquished such advantage in order to observe those same rules, does little to uphold the rules or standards of behaviour expected by failing to encourage the rule breaker to change their behaviour through sanction, or encourage the rule abider that they need to continue abiding by those rules if they aren't to receive sanction.
The rule in question is the rule against inconsiderate driving. What you've said is a circular argument which fails to address the issue that no advantage is conferred (in the sense of a corresponding disadvantage existing that might constitute the inconvenience necessary for an offence of inconsiderate driving to have been committed) by simply overtaking like this, except in the mind of someone who has brought the wrong attitude to their driving.Failing to deal with those who gain an advantage from ignoring the rules of the road, whilst others observing have relinquished such advantage in order to observe those same rules, does little to uphold the rules or standards of behaviour expected by failing to encourage the rule breaker to change their behaviour through sanction, or encourage the rule abider that they need to continue abiding by those rules if they aren't to receive sanction.
Of course, it's not just the overtaken who might have that attitude problem, the overtaker might too. If they do, that's a bad thing, but you can't conclude that they do just because they are overtaking. Do you think the CPS supposes that the only reason someone might seek to pass a slower vehicle is because they think they are in a race?
It falls below the standard expected of a 'competent & careful' driver. It would be an instant fail in a driving test.
vonhosen said:
It's not just inconsiderate it's careless.
It falls below the standard expected of a 'competent & careful' driver. It would be an instant fail in a driving test.
That may be so, but that has no bearing on the appropriateness of the CPS's use of 'advantage'. Inconsiderate driving requires a victim who is inconvenienced. Regardless of any other criticism you might want to level at someone who overtakes in this manner, if you want to call it inconsiderate driving on the basis that the overtaker has gained an advantage over other drivers, you need to explain what disadvantage is conferred by being overtaken.It falls below the standard expected of a 'competent & careful' driver. It would be an instant fail in a driving test.
Take the lane use question out of it for a moment. Imagine you and I are driving along the road. I am behind a slow lorry and you are behind me. A normal overtaking opportunity presents. I, for whatever reason, don't overtake. You do, passing me and the lorry. Fine. No problem. Nothing questionable about that. Yes, it is to your advantage that you are now ahead of the vehicle that was travelling slower than you, but it is not to my disadvantage that you are now ahead of the vehicle that was travelling slower than you.
Now imagine the same thing but this time the overtaking opportunity that I decline and you take is to use the right turn lane when we stop at the traffic lights. OK, so now there is something questionable. But if you think you can argue that one of the questionable aspects of that is that it is to my disadvantage that you are now ahead of the vehicle that was travelling slower than you, then you are simultaneously arguing that it was also to my disadvantage (albeit a perfectly acceptable disadvantage) when you overtook in the previous example.
The simple fact of being overtaken can not be described as a disadvantage when you are not in a race.
SK425 said:
vonhosen said:
It's not just inconsiderate it's careless.
It falls below the standard expected of a 'competent & careful' driver. It would be an instant fail in a driving test.
That may be so, but that has no bearing on the appropriateness of the CPS's use of 'advantage'. Inconsiderate driving requires a victim who is inconvenienced. Regardless of any other criticism you might want to level at someone who overtakes in this manner, if you want to call it inconsiderate driving on the basis that the overtaker has gained an advantage over other drivers, you need to explain what disadvantage is conferred by being overtaken.It falls below the standard expected of a 'competent & careful' driver. It would be an instant fail in a driving test.
a) Each case is dealt with on it's merits
b) Just because one person doesn't think something amounts to a disadvantage another isn't beholden to that viewpoint.
Academic of course if careless is satisfied.
SK425 said:
Take the lane use question out of it for a moment. Imagine you and I are driving along the road. I am behind a slow lorry and you are behind me. A normal overtaking opportunity presents. I, for whatever reason, don't overtake. You do, passing me and the lorry. Fine. No problem. Nothing questionable about that. Yes, it is to your advantage that you are now ahead of the vehicle that was travelling slower than you, but it is not to my disadvantage that you are now ahead of the vehicle that was travelling slower than you.
Now imagine the same thing but this time the overtaking opportunity that I decline and you take is to use the right turn lane when we stop at the traffic lights. OK, so now there is something questionable. But if you think you can argue that one of the questionable aspects of that is that it is to my disadvantage that you are now ahead of the vehicle that was travelling slower than you, then you are simultaneously arguing that it was also to my disadvantage (albeit a perfectly acceptable disadvantage) when you overtook in the previous example.
The simple fact of being overtaken can not be described as a disadvantage when you are not in a race.
I've already said it's not about overtaking.Now imagine the same thing but this time the overtaking opportunity that I decline and you take is to use the right turn lane when we stop at the traffic lights. OK, so now there is something questionable. But if you think you can argue that one of the questionable aspects of that is that it is to my disadvantage that you are now ahead of the vehicle that was travelling slower than you, then you are simultaneously arguing that it was also to my disadvantage (albeit a perfectly acceptable disadvantage) when you overtook in the previous example.
The simple fact of being overtaken can not be described as a disadvantage when you are not in a race.
vonhosen said:
That however is not the test for whether driving is careless. It's has the driving fallen below the standard expected of a 'competent & careful' driver. Both competent & careful!
Intentionally going into a right turn lane when wanting to go ahead can be said to fall below that standard, as I've said it would result in a serious fault & therefore failure in our test of competence.
why should the above be (in)competent or careless whearas the tIntentionally going into a right turn lane when wanting to go ahead can be said to fall below that standard, as I've said it would result in a serious fault & therefore failure in our test of competence.
ts that can't pull away sometime this week aren't? They're incompetent yet no copper wants to do them do they?CoolHands said:
vonhosen said:
That however is not the test for whether driving is careless. It's has the driving fallen below the standard expected of a 'competent & careful' driver. Both competent & careful!
Intentionally going into a right turn lane when wanting to go ahead can be said to fall below that standard, as I've said it would result in a serious fault & therefore failure in our test of competence.
why should the above be (in)competent or careless whearas the tIntentionally going into a right turn lane when wanting to go ahead can be said to fall below that standard, as I've said it would result in a serious fault & therefore failure in our test of competence.
ts that can't pull away sometime this week aren't? They're incompetent yet no copper wants to do them do they?The vast majority of careless/inconsiderate acts of all types go unreported & we've all committed careless/inconsiderate acts.
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