Police officer DD,automatic prison time?
Discussion
ED209 said:
Jesus a lot of tripe is talked on here.
The police don't have union or unions at all, in fact police officers are forbidden in law from joining a union.
i am surprised that people are kicked out of the military for a drink driving conviction only. I know of many, many squaddies with more than one conviction for more than one criminal offence. They are still serving soldiers.
In fact I was at court a few weeks ago with a squaddie who had half a dozen previous convictions, he got another couple that day for drunk and disorderly and obstructing a police officer. His commanding officer was at court with him, I had a chat with him. There was no suggestion he was to be kicked out of the military.
A police officer would be sacked without a doubt just for those two convictions.
Police Federation is a union in all but name imo both represent their members interests The police don't have union or unions at all, in fact police officers are forbidden in law from joining a union.
i am surprised that people are kicked out of the military for a drink driving conviction only. I know of many, many squaddies with more than one conviction for more than one criminal offence. They are still serving soldiers.
In fact I was at court a few weeks ago with a squaddie who had half a dozen previous convictions, he got another couple that day for drunk and disorderly and obstructing a police officer. His commanding officer was at court with him, I had a chat with him. There was no suggestion he was to be kicked out of the military.
A police officer would be sacked without a doubt just for those two convictions.
If driving was a critical part of your job in the military and you lost you licence and could no longer do that job you arent a lot of use , not fair to expect the tax payer to pick up the bill while you sweep floors for a year
Of course there could be exceptions but you would consider yourself very lucky if someone put their neck on the line for you, plenty lost their jobs. Of course basic squaddies is a different story , a criminal record was not seen as a bad thing at one time
liner33 said:
Police Federation is a union in all but name imo both represent their members interests
It is not a union. It is a part of HR. It is a department of the force, installed in 1919 as a way of controlling the PCs. It is not a union. Only those who do not understand the way the police are limited can make that mistake. It is forced on PCs.Saying it doesn't make it so.
- - -
Being a police officer is an aggravating factor for drink driving, or any offence come to that. Police officers are habitually given increased sentences. My DC was given 24 months ban, mitigated to 18mths due to the fact that he had been drinking in the course of his employment, part of his role in gaining information from a source.
He was not sacked. There had been a case of a police officer being sacked without a hearing some months before and it was going through appeal. The finding, post my DC's case, was that it was not fair (legal) as he had already been punished by the court.
My DC was allowed to keep his job - he was a cracking DC, quite special. Had he been sacked it would have been a a case of the job shooting itself in the foot.
With the role of police officer goes responsibility. There are imposed limitations, some of which are totally unreasonable. Fr instance, no police officer can be a school governor. No officer is allowed to join a union. The only reason for this is that the government wanted to keep control the police.
You have to accept a higher standard than most roles is required. It is higher than that of MPs, lawyers, civil service and more. However, a non criminal offence - DD is a prescribed limit offence - should not be a compulsory sacking. There must be other aggravating factors.
liner33 said:
Police Federation is a union in all but name imo both represent their members interests
If driving was a critical part of your job in the military and you lost you licence and could no longer do that job you arent a lot of use , not fair to expect the tax payer to pick up the bill while you sweep floors for a year
Of course there could be exceptions but you would consider yourself very lucky if someone put their neck on the line for you, plenty lost their jobs. Of course basic squaddies is a different story , a criminal record was not seen as a bad thing at one time
I might be imagining this, but the forces can override a driving ban purely for forces related driving. I'm sure someone had that a while ago back in my day in the early 90sIf driving was a critical part of your job in the military and you lost you licence and could no longer do that job you arent a lot of use , not fair to expect the tax payer to pick up the bill while you sweep floors for a year
Of course there could be exceptions but you would consider yourself very lucky if someone put their neck on the line for you, plenty lost their jobs. Of course basic squaddies is a different story , a criminal record was not seen as a bad thing at one time
Mk3Spitfire said:
We (response) always give them (traffic) a ribbing for being lazy, but in truth, they end up assisting us with a lot of non "traffic" calls. They're taser equipped, so useful in taser jobs. In turn, we often attend or assist with RTC's or traffic stuff.
Re above. People don't lose their license for speeding and doing 36 in a 30. People lose their license for showing a continuous disregard for the law. That's why you can have 12 (or as I have seen, up to 21) points on a licence. People make mistakes, but making 4 mistakes in as many years indicates there might be more of an issue.
Pretty much how it was when I was on response except we were taser and they weren't. Everyone now comes up as a dot on a map in the control room, due to less bodies on the ground if you're closest then you're going to the job.... traffic, neighbourhood, response, OSU etc. Granted they might not keep it but as an initial response then off you go to it. Re above. People don't lose their license for speeding and doing 36 in a 30. People lose their license for showing a continuous disregard for the law. That's why you can have 12 (or as I have seen, up to 21) points on a licence. People make mistakes, but making 4 mistakes in as many years indicates there might be more of an issue.
Everyone seems to work together well but one thing you have to remember about other departments is that they are ALWAYS busier than you are
Derek Smith said:
liner33 said:
Police Federation is a union in all but name imo both represent their members interests
It is not a union. It is a part of HR. It is a department of the force, installed in 1919 as a way of controlling the PCs. It is not a union. Only those who do not understand the way the police are limited can make that mistake. It is forced on PCs.Saying it doesn't make it so.
- - -
Being a police officer is an aggravating factor for drink driving, or any offence come to that. Police officers are habitually given increased sentences. My DC was given 24 months ban, mitigated to 18mths due to the fact that he had been drinking in the course of his employment, part of his role in gaining information from a source.
He was not sacked. There had been a case of a police officer being sacked without a hearing some months before and it was going through appeal. The finding, post my DC's case, was that it was not fair (legal) as he had already been punished by the court.
My DC was allowed to keep his job - he was a cracking DC, quite special. Had he been sacked it would have been a a case of the job shooting itself in the foot.
With the role of police officer goes responsibility. There are imposed limitations, some of which are totally unreasonable. Fr instance, no police officer can be a school governor. No officer is allowed to join a union. The only reason for this is that the government wanted to keep control the police.
You have to accept a higher standard than most roles is required. It is higher than that of MPs, lawyers, civil service and more. However, a non criminal offence - DD is a prescribed limit offence - should not be a compulsory sacking. There must be other aggravating factors.
Nigel Worc's said:
ED209 said:
Well traffic and roads policing are the same thing, exactly the same thing in fact with a different name.
I have never experienced any divide, any change of working relationship or change of attitude in the last 18 years despite "traffic" having had several name changes in that time.
I'd suggest they are very different, I didn't see many traffic boys sully themselves by turning up to help out at pub fights etc !I have never experienced any divide, any change of working relationship or change of attitude in the last 18 years despite "traffic" having had several name changes in that time.
Edited by Bigends on Saturday 24th January 16:49
Bigends said:
erek I was a co-opted school governor at a school on my patch for 12 years, some things are allowed
I might be wrong but I think co-opted is a bit different from the responsibilities of a full governor. There was a case brought by a county PC, with the support of the Fed, against the CC's refusal to allow him to be a governor. The argument was that it was incompatible with the responsibility of a police officer. All the way to the high court, and the fed lost. It was at the same time as the approach to the UCHR regarding the right to free association. There was quite a fuss at the time I remember. However, the ruling only gave authority for the CC to refuse permission although this then became the default position. You say 'your path'. The PC who was blocked wanted to be a governor at a school his lad went to and I do not know whether this was a factor in the decision.
I thought it unreasonable but their honours didn't ask me.
The EHCR's opinion, that's not a decision, was that they would look favourably on any approach for the right to join a union, it being an unreasonable restriction in their eyes, but then the government are not too keen on rights.
My force were of the opinion that they could dictate where a PC should live. They'd been doing this for years.
Derek Smith said:
Bigends said:
erek I was a co-opted school governor at a school on my patch for 12 years, some things are allowed
I might be wrong but I think co-opted is a bit different from the responsibilities of a full governor. There was a case brought by a county PC, with the support of the Fed, against the CC's refusal to allow him to be a governor. The argument was that it was incompatible with the responsibility of a police officer. All the way to the high court, and the fed lost. It was at the same time as the approach to the UCHR regarding the right to free association. There was quite a fuss at the time I remember. However, the ruling only gave authority for the CC to refuse permission although this then became the default position. You say 'your path'. The PC who was blocked wanted to be a governor at a school his lad went to and I do not know whether this was a factor in the decision.
I thought it unreasonable but their honours didn't ask me.
The EHCR's opinion, that's not a decision, was that they would look favourably on any approach for the right to join a union, it being an unreasonable restriction in their eyes, but then the government are not too keen on rights.
My force were of the opinion that they could dictate where a PC should live. They'd been doing this for years.
For years officers in my force could only live within our county so the job had the final say where we all lived =and who we lived with. Officers commute in from miles away now and the job has little or no control now
Edited by Bigends on Saturday 24th January 18:49
liner33 said:
Police Federation is a union in all but name imo both represent their members interests
It's nothing of the sort. Police Officers have no industrial rights whatsoever. The Fed is a (poor) representative body. It has no teeth at all.As for all this 'Traffic' nonsense. I work on the motorway. At least 60% of my time is spent off it (more at night). We go to everything and spend lots of time in the City Centre. There is no 'divide'. We're all desperately trying to keep the lid on with very limited resources.
Elroy Blue said:
It's nothing of the sort. Police Officers have no industrial rights whatsoever. The Fed is a (poor) representative body. It has no teeth at all.
As for all this 'Traffic' nonsense. I work on the motorway. At least 60% of my time is spent off it (more at night). We go to everything and spend lots of time in the City Centre. There is no 'divide'. We're all desperately trying to keep the lid on with very limited resources.
Exactly the federation was set up by the government via an act of parliament, they were hardly likely to give them any real powers to secure good pay and conditions for their members were they?As for all this 'Traffic' nonsense. I work on the motorway. At least 60% of my time is spent off it (more at night). We go to everything and spend lots of time in the City Centre. There is no 'divide'. We're all desperately trying to keep the lid on with very limited resources.
Pay and conditions have been getting worse over the last few years and due to the cuts I am expected to do more with 25% less staff and for less take home pay than i got 5 years ago. This is before you consider how my pension has been decimated.
The federation has less power now than it ever did thanks to May's new police pay body.
They have so much power they asked for a maximum 1% pay rise for officers this year at the same time police staff who have industrial rights threatened to strike and got offered 2.2%.
I await the gold plated pension anti police rants.
30 odd years ago a DD conviction did not result in automatic dismissal as long as one did not extract the Michael.
It would involve a fairly unpleasant disciplinary and a lot of foot patrol. A mate of mine also got moved stations so he had a 30 mile cycle ride daily. He was however as fit as anything after 12 months!
It would involve a fairly unpleasant disciplinary and a lot of foot patrol. A mate of mine also got moved stations so he had a 30 mile cycle ride daily. He was however as fit as anything after 12 months!
La Liga said:
The only reason I pay the Fed is because I know it allows any officer access to the best legal representation if required.
It doesn't appear to add a huge amount after that.
Same here but don't forget the 2015 diary you'll get in about October this year.It doesn't appear to add a huge amount after that.
I had an argument with my fed rep a while back as he couldn't tell me what he did that was of benefit to me but wanted me to vote for him.
Buffet lunches and fed conferences are a free ride for the reps, multi million pound HQ that 99% of the people paying for it will never see etc.
Pointless.
Greendubber said:
La Liga said:
The only reason I pay the Fed is because I know it allows any officer access to the best legal representation if required.
It doesn't appear to add a huge amount after that.
Same here but don't forget the 2015 diary you'll get in about October this year.It doesn't appear to add a huge amount after that.
I had an argument with my fed rep a while back as he couldn't tell me what he did that was of benefit to me but wanted me to vote for him.
Buffet lunches and fed conferences are a free ride for the reps, multi million pound HQ that 99% of the people paying for it will never see etc.
Pointless.
Bigends said:
Main advantage is legal representation though the free RAC and cheap life insurance and travel insurance is handy
I'd much rather have them shouting exactly what the cuts are doing to the front line and telling the public exactly whats going on. They need to get a bit of support for the police in the times of all the mud slinging Theresa and Dave are doing on a regular basis. Greendubber said:
Bigends said:
Main advantage is legal representation though the free RAC and cheap life insurance and travel insurance is handy
I'd much rather have them shouting exactly what the cuts are doing to the front line and telling the public exactly whats going on. They need to get a bit of support for the police in the times of all the mud slinging Theresa and Dave are doing on a regular basis. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff