Fine for a dirty number plate?

[Devil2575]

SK425 said:

p1esk said:

It rather depends on the crime, but basically I agree with SK425: I'm not keen on the idea of us all going around reporting each other for various 'crimes.'

The distinction is between things that do harm - like driving off after running someone over - and things like not cleaning your number plate, which simply amount to not doing as you're told.

The former are everybody's concern. The latter are nobody else's concern.

Whether or not it's just "Not doing as your told" is not straight forward though isn't it.

I'd imagine that people who are going to use a car to commit crime may well conceal a number plate. Would you regard a car driving around without number plates as nobody else's concern as well?

In theory this country has Policing by consent and the Police are simply enforcing laws and standards that the people in general view as important. The idea that there are laws and standards that are nobody else's business is somewhat strange. Another way of thinking about it is that the standard you walk past is the standard you get.

[SK425]

Devil2575 said:

Whether or not it's just "Not doing as your told" is not straight forward though isn't it.

I'd imagine that people who are going to use a car to commit crime may well conceal a number plate. Would you regard a car driving around without number plates as nobody else's concern as well?

Are you jumping from "people who are going to use a car to commit crime may well conceal a number plate" to "everybody who hasn't washed their number plate is going to commit a crime"?

Devil2575 said:

In theory this country has Policing by consent and the Police are simply enforcing laws and standards that the people in general view as important. The idea that there are laws and standards that are nobody else's business is somewhat strange. Another way of thinking about it is that the standard you walk past is the standard you get.

If we lived under a system whereby a rule couldn't come into force unless nobody voted against it, I might agree with you. But we don't live under that system - what a hopelessly impractical system it would be. I completely understand why the state takes issue with people who don't do as they're told, but the reason the state does that does not lend any support to an argument that individuals should do the same.

[shep1001]

Plod pulled me many moons ago for dirty rear plate, epic 500 mile round trip as it goes. When we had established the reason for the tug I was offered a vehicle defect notice or I could 'clean it' there and then. Plod even provided the water & cloth to wipe it with!

[shep1001]

Nigel Worc's said:

Only a guess here, but his radar disturbance will have been greater than yours.

I believe these devices can be set in such a manner that they measure the disturbance to ascertain the speed limit for that vehicle.

If a "luton van" the limit for him will have been 50 mph, but being a larger van he may have tripped the threshold for 40 mph vehicles, if you get my "drift".

Or that spiny black thing on top can set them off if it rotates fast enough

[g3org3y]

My E36 Touring is (properly) filthy. I have however cleaned the lights all round and the windows for perfect visibility.

Have I cleaned the number plate? I'll wait for the rain to do that.

[Devil2575]

T

SK425 said:

Devil2575 said:

Whether or not it's just "Not doing as your told" is not straight forward though isn't it.

I'd imagine that people who are going to use a car to commit crime may well conceal a number plate. Would you regard a car driving around without number plates as nobody else's concern as well?

Are you jumping from "people who are going to use a car to commit crime may well conceal a number plate" to "everybody who hasn't washed their number plate is going to commit a crime"?

Devil2575 said:

In theory this country has Policing by consent and the Police are simply enforcing laws and standards that the people in general view as important. The idea that there are laws and standards that are nobody else's business is somewhat strange. Another way of thinking about it is that the standard you walk past is the standard you get.

If we lived under a system whereby a rule couldn't come into force unless nobody voted against it, I might agree with you. But we don't live under that system - what a hopelessly impractical system it would be. I completely understand why the state takes issue with people who don't do as they're told, but the reason the state does that does not lend any support to an argument that individuals should do the same.

In answer to the first point no.

The second point, I don't agree. If I happen to agree with the reasons for those laws and rules then it benefits me to help to ensure they are adhered too. For example someone driving without insurance causes my premiums to be more expensive and puts me at risk of having to cover the costs of a repair if they hit me.

[CaptainMorgan]

nadger said:

I've been pulled over for having a dirty illegible plate. The officer gave me the choice of points or a wet wipe to clean the plate. My response?
'Can I have a wet wipe please officer?'
I'm dangerous, me!

No points, just a fine for a obscured plate

[LucreLout]

p1esk said:

I'm not keen on the idea of us all going around reporting each other for various 'crimes.'

I'm not keen on reporting trivial offences either, especially where two seconds of direct action can peacefully resolve the problem.

Nobody knows how they will react when they hit someone until that day rolls round. The adrenalin surge is apparently epic triggering a significant fight or more likely flight response. The injured need an ambulance and the driver needs to be identifiable, which is where the number plate comes in.

[Vee8man]

shep1001 said:

Nigel Worc's said:

Only a guess here, but his radar disturbance will have been greater than yours.

I believe these devices can be set in such a manner that they measure the disturbance to ascertain the speed limit for that vehicle.

If a "luton van" the limit for him will have been 50 mph, but being a larger van he may have tripped the threshold for 40 mph vehicles, if you get my "drift".

Or that spiny black thing on top can set them off if it rotates fast enough

I was following closely (as there was an overtaking opportunity) in an XLWB VW Crafter and, as far as I'm aware, I was not flashed......

[nadger]

CaptainMorgan said:

nadger said:

I've been pulled over for having a dirty illegible plate. The officer gave me the choice of points or a wet wipe to clean the plate. My response?
'Can I have a wet wipe please officer?'
I'm dangerous, me!

No points, just a fine for a obscured plate

Fair enough, it was over a year ago!

[v12Legs]

SK425 said:

Are you jumping from "people who are going to use a car to commit crime may well conceal a number plate" to "everybody who hasn't washed their number plate is going to commit a crime"?

If you have an obscured plate, you are guilty of a crime, so purely as a matter of fact "everybody who hasn't washed their number plate" has already committed a crime!

Anyway, the OP wasn't saying report them; he was very kindly washing their numberplate for them so they didn't have to worry about it.

[SK425]

Devil2575 said:

The second point, I don't agree. If I happen to agree with the reasons for those laws and rules then it benefits me to help to ensure they are adhered too.

Of course, but that's a very selfish and intolerant attitude, not at all conducive to enormous numbers of people with all their different opinions and values and priorities being able to live together in a healthy and happy society.

By and large, we all get along by being tolerant, by accepting that we can't expect to agree with everybody on everything all the time, by refraining from poking our noses into other people's business uninvited, by living and letting live, by not throwing the first stone when we are not without sin ourselves - all that good stuff. We behave like that towards others because we know it's unpleasant when others do not behave that way towards us. That's an important principle, but the question is how far you take it. Clearly it's absurd to take it so far that you decide you shouldn't get involved when you see someone being mugged, or someone driving off after a running someone over.

[Devil2575]

SK425 said:

Devil2575 said:

The second point, I don't agree. If I happen to agree with the reasons for those laws and rules then it benefits me to help to ensure they are adhered too.

Of course, but that's a very selfish and intolerant attitude, not at all conducive to enormous numbers of people with all their different opinions and values and priorities being able to live together in a healthy and happy society.

By and large, we all get along by being tolerant, by accepting that we can't expect to agree with everybody on everything all the time, by refraining from poking our noses into other people's business uninvited, by living and letting live, by not throwing the first stone when we are not without sin ourselves - all that good stuff. We behave like that towards others because we know it's unpleasant when others do not behave that way towards us. That's an important principle, but the question is how far you take it. Clearly it's absurd to take it so far that you decide not to bother getting involved when you see someone being mugged, or someone driving off after a running someone over.

The question is when does someone elses business become your business.

I can't think of many situations where someone "breaking a rule" doesn't effect me. If I walk past then I am saying that it doesn't matter if people don't follow the rules that the rest of us do. A dirty number plate is a fairly trivial example but if you agree with the reason why vehicles need to display a registration number then do you think it right that people should just ignore it as it is not their business? Would you be happy with someone driving a car with no number plates on the road?
The idea that any aspect of Policing should be none of my business is a little bit alien to me.

I suspect your reasoning is based on a dislike of certain rules and so a desire to not adhere to them.

[9mm]

aww999 said:

speedking31 said:

Logically the punishment must be less than that for a missing plate because in some scenarios, e.g. illegal parking, it is still possible for the authorities to determine the VRN and so it's a lesser crime.

You could argue that a missing plate had dropped off since you left the house though, and it would be very heard for the police to prove otherwise. An illegibly filthy plate would take some time to develop, so unless you do LEJOG in the depths of winter that excuse wouldn't hold much water.

An illegible plate doesn't take long to develop in some conditions (esp damp spray) and some vehicles like estates are worse than others.

As for cleaning someone else's plate, it's hard to think of a better definition of a tt.

[s p a c e m a n]

aww999 said:

You could argue that a missing plate had dropped off since you left the house though, and it would be very heard for the police to prove otherwise.

3 points and a fine for confessing that something fell off of your vehicle.

'Some unscrupulous individual must have stolen it, I hadn't noticed officer as I approached from the other end of the vehicle' Used on numerous occasions for the front plate because we have a lot of front facing average speed cameras around here

[AlexRS2782]

Followed a blue BMW 3 Series Tourer earlier today that had its rear end completely caked in a very thick mud spray layer, so much so the rear plate was illegible. The driver had managed to use the wiper on the rear screen to clear that enough to see through it though.

Didn't think much of it until I went past him at the roundabout for the M3 J4, and you could see the rest of the car must have been cleaned fairly recently of the rest of the mud / dirt that had been on all the other panels. Seeing as he was turning onto the London bound stretch of the M3 I assume the rear had been left deliberately dirty to avoid the car being picked up by the speed cameras in the stretch of the M3 that's being worked on at the moment.

[Vee8man]

AlexRS2782 said:

Followed a blue BMW 3 Series Tourer earlier today that had its rear end completely caked in a very thick mud spray layer, so much so the rear plate was illegible. The driver had managed to use the wiper on the rear screen to clear that enough to see through it though.

Didn't think much of it until I went past him at the roundabout for the M3 J4, and you could see the rest of the car must have been cleaned fairly recently of the rest of the mud / dirt that had been on all the other panels. Seeing as he was turning onto the London bound stretch of the M3 I assume the rear had been left deliberately dirty to avoid the car being picked up by the speed cameras in the stretch of the M3 that's being worked on at the moment.

The rear end will always cake up much quicker than anywhere else on the car though ....?

Although the widespread criminalisation of drivers for many and various minor infractions will only lead to this kind of activity (or non-activity in this case).....?
Discuss.....

Edited by Vee8man on Thursday 29th January 16:28

[9mm]

This thread is a good illustration of how well the Stasi would do in the UK.

[Dammit]

They were really into cleaning I hear.

[CubanPete]

I have had a bit of a moan to the local nursery as many of its patrons are using the double yellow lines on one of the main junctions in the town where I live rather than the car park.

I feel like a bit of a creep (school creep rather than weirdo creep) but it creates masses of congestion and creates a very nasty blind corner.

I think as members of society we have a responsibility, if not to address, at least to report, these things. The 'it's only two minutes' excuse loses its validity once it causes something more serious to happen.