Potential to loose £10k from the sale of my car! HELP! SCAM
Discussion
OP - the problem you have is that 'your' car is no longer yours, it is simply the dealer who owes you cash.
The dealer may be having cashflow problems, or may be going bust.
Either way, from experience, you need to do two things:
1) He will pay his bills in the order of 'who shouts loudest'. You need to shout the loudest.
2) You need to act decisively and quickly.
There's a variety of ways forward. The most lawful ones would be to see a solicitor who will warn that you are taking legal action. That might be enough for him to stop messing around. However, it does seem that this is not an isolated incident.
Other options include more direct action which might not need to be any more forceful than simply turning up at his dealership, saying hello, and saying you were in the area, and you came to collect your cash in case the bank transfer was a problem. That way, you can both go to the bank, he can withdraw and you can pay in.
I've done that with a small dealer, and he was happy to do that.
The dealer may be having cashflow problems, or may be going bust.
Either way, from experience, you need to do two things:
1) He will pay his bills in the order of 'who shouts loudest'. You need to shout the loudest.
2) You need to act decisively and quickly.
There's a variety of ways forward. The most lawful ones would be to see a solicitor who will warn that you are taking legal action. That might be enough for him to stop messing around. However, it does seem that this is not an isolated incident.
Other options include more direct action which might not need to be any more forceful than simply turning up at his dealership, saying hello, and saying you were in the area, and you came to collect your cash in case the bank transfer was a problem. That way, you can both go to the bank, he can withdraw and you can pay in.
I've done that with a small dealer, and he was happy to do that.
JustinP1 said:
OP - the problem you have is that 'your' car is no longer yours, it is simply the dealer who owes you cash.
The dealer may be having cashflow problems, or may be going bust.
Either way, from experience, you need to do two things:
1) He will pay his bills in the order of 'who shouts loudest'. You need to shout the loudest.
2) You need to act decisively and quickly.
There's a variety of ways forward. The most lawful ones would be to see a solicitor who will warn that you are taking legal action. That might be enough for him to stop messing around. However, it does seem that this is not an isolated incident.
Other options include more direct action which might not need to be any more forceful than simply turning up at his dealership, saying hello, and saying you were in the area, and you came to collect your cash in case the bank transfer was a problem. That way, you can both go to the bank, he can withdraw and you can pay in.
I've done that with a small dealer, and he was happy to do that.
This is good advice. The OP is being used as free cash flow for the business, cheaper than a bank loan. You need to be the biggest "issue" to get any kind of resolution, but expect 1 billion excuses first.The dealer may be having cashflow problems, or may be going bust.
Either way, from experience, you need to do two things:
1) He will pay his bills in the order of 'who shouts loudest'. You need to shout the loudest.
2) You need to act decisively and quickly.
There's a variety of ways forward. The most lawful ones would be to see a solicitor who will warn that you are taking legal action. That might be enough for him to stop messing around. However, it does seem that this is not an isolated incident.
Other options include more direct action which might not need to be any more forceful than simply turning up at his dealership, saying hello, and saying you were in the area, and you came to collect your cash in case the bank transfer was a problem. That way, you can both go to the bank, he can withdraw and you can pay in.
I've done that with a small dealer, and he was happy to do that.
I don't have time to write a detailed reply but in what has happened to the OP happened to a close friend of mine. Police weren't interested - "civil matter, possession is 9/10ths of the law", etc, etc.
The car was located and taken (using the spare key) to a secure lockup not associated with the owner. Cue an almost immediate visit from Bib investigating theft of said car. So they were blanked and the story ended with the original owner confirming ownership. IIRC the 'new owner' couldn't produce any receipt for his purchase and didn't have the V5 which meant he also hadn't taxed the car.
So my advice, based on experience, is take it back, hide it, and then argue about who owns it from a position of strength.
The car was located and taken (using the spare key) to a secure lockup not associated with the owner. Cue an almost immediate visit from Bib investigating theft of said car. So they were blanked and the story ended with the original owner confirming ownership. IIRC the 'new owner' couldn't produce any receipt for his purchase and didn't have the V5 which meant he also hadn't taxed the car.
So my advice, based on experience, is take it back, hide it, and then argue about who owns it from a position of strength.
9mm said:
I don't have time to write a detailed reply but in what has happened to the OP happened to a close friend of mine. Police weren't interested - "civil matter, possession is 9/10ths of the law", etc, etc.
The car was located and taken (using the spare key) to a secure lockup not associated with the owner. Cue an almost immediate visit from Bib investigating theft of said car. So they were blanked and the story ended with the original owner confirming ownership. IIRC the 'new owner' couldn't produce any receipt for his purchase and didn't have the V5 which meant he also hadn't taxed the car.
So my advice, based on experience, is take it back, hide it, and then argue about who owns it from a position of strength.
But if it has actually been sold, then the end buyer has bought it in good faith - plus how will it be found in your scenario?The car was located and taken (using the spare key) to a secure lockup not associated with the owner. Cue an almost immediate visit from Bib investigating theft of said car. So they were blanked and the story ended with the original owner confirming ownership. IIRC the 'new owner' couldn't produce any receipt for his purchase and didn't have the V5 which meant he also hadn't taxed the car.
So my advice, based on experience, is take it back, hide it, and then argue about who owns it from a position of strength.
Vaud said:
9mm said:
I don't have time to write a detailed reply but in what has happened to the OP happened to a close friend of mine. Police weren't interested - "civil matter, possession is 9/10ths of the law", etc, etc.
The car was located and taken (using the spare key) to a secure lockup not associated with the owner. Cue an almost immediate visit from Bib investigating theft of said car. So they were blanked and the story ended with the original owner confirming ownership. IIRC the 'new owner' couldn't produce any receipt for his purchase and didn't have the V5 which meant he also hadn't taxed the car.
So my advice, based on experience, is take it back, hide it, and then argue about who owns it from a position of strength.
But if it has actually been sold, then the end buyer has bought it in good faith - plus how will it be found in your scenario?The car was located and taken (using the spare key) to a secure lockup not associated with the owner. Cue an almost immediate visit from Bib investigating theft of said car. So they were blanked and the story ended with the original owner confirming ownership. IIRC the 'new owner' couldn't produce any receipt for his purchase and didn't have the V5 which meant he also hadn't taxed the car.
So my advice, based on experience, is take it back, hide it, and then argue about who owns it from a position of strength.
9mm said:
I'll let a lawyer give a definitive answer but my understanding is that buying something in good faith doesn't make it yours. Obviously this situation is a bit more complicated but I can only reiterate what happened in my case. Once the car was re-acquired, there was a lot of argy bargy about evidence of a real sale taking place and clearly it didn't exist. The OP's case is on the surface of things different but it may well be that the car wasn't really sold at all, or if it was, by some strange coincidence it was to one of the dealer's staff or mates at a knock down price...
That may be true. However, I would say it is dangerous going down that route. If a proper sale has taken place, title of the car will have gone to someone else.
You can't take someone else's car any more than you can burgle their house. The fact that you used to own the car is irrelevant. The new buyer owes you nothing, and all the dealer owes you is cash.
If the facts were slightly different in your case, or the police officer investigating took a different stance, you could have landed yourself in serious hot water.
JustinP1 said:
9mm said:
I'll let a lawyer give a definitive answer but my understanding is that buying something in good faith doesn't make it yours. Obviously this situation is a bit more complicated but I can only reiterate what happened in my case. Once the car was re-acquired, there was a lot of argy bargy about evidence of a real sale taking place and clearly it didn't exist. The OP's case is on the surface of things different but it may well be that the car wasn't really sold at all, or if it was, by some strange coincidence it was to one of the dealer's staff or mates at a knock down price...
That may be true. However, I would say it is dangerous going down that route. If a proper sale has taken place, title of the car will have gone to someone else.
You can't take someone else's car any more than you can burgle their house. The fact that you used to own the car is irrelevant. The new buyer owes you nothing, and all the dealer owes you is cash.
If the facts were slightly different in your case, or the police officer investigating took a different stance, you could have landed yourself in serious hot water.
I guess, as with so many of these posts, it's hard to say what's best without seeing every last detail.
What was particularly interesting in my case was the contrast between Police unwillingness to assist with a fraud and their willingness to assist someone (with no proof of ownership) claiming their car had been stolen.
9mm said:
JustinP1 said:
9mm said:
I'll let a lawyer give a definitive answer but my understanding is that buying something in good faith doesn't make it yours. Obviously this situation is a bit more complicated but I can only reiterate what happened in my case. Once the car was re-acquired, there was a lot of argy bargy about evidence of a real sale taking place and clearly it didn't exist. The OP's case is on the surface of things different but it may well be that the car wasn't really sold at all, or if it was, by some strange coincidence it was to one of the dealer's staff or mates at a knock down price...
That may be true. However, I would say it is dangerous going down that route. If a proper sale has taken place, title of the car will have gone to someone else.
You can't take someone else's car any more than you can burgle their house. The fact that you used to own the car is irrelevant. The new buyer owes you nothing, and all the dealer owes you is cash.
If the facts were slightly different in your case, or the police officer investigating took a different stance, you could have landed yourself in serious hot water.
I guess, as with so many of these posts, it's hard to say what's best without seeing every last detail.
What was particularly interesting in my case was the contrast between Police unwillingness to assist with a fraud and their willingness to assist someone (with no proof of ownership) claiming their car had been stolen.
In the OP's case, the V5 may be on someone else's name. The car may even have finance on it.
JustinP1 said:
9mm said:
JustinP1 said:
9mm said:
I'll let a lawyer give a definitive answer but my understanding is that buying something in good faith doesn't make it yours. Obviously this situation is a bit more complicated but I can only reiterate what happened in my case. Once the car was re-acquired, there was a lot of argy bargy about evidence of a real sale taking place and clearly it didn't exist. The OP's case is on the surface of things different but it may well be that the car wasn't really sold at all, or if it was, by some strange coincidence it was to one of the dealer's staff or mates at a knock down price...
That may be true. However, I would say it is dangerous going down that route. If a proper sale has taken place, title of the car will have gone to someone else.
You can't take someone else's car any more than you can burgle their house. The fact that you used to own the car is irrelevant. The new buyer owes you nothing, and all the dealer owes you is cash.
If the facts were slightly different in your case, or the police officer investigating took a different stance, you could have landed yourself in serious hot water.
I guess, as with so many of these posts, it's hard to say what's best without seeing every last detail.
What was particularly interesting in my case was the contrast between Police unwillingness to assist with a fraud and their willingness to assist someone (with no proof of ownership) claiming their car had been stolen.
In the OP's case, the V5 may be on someone else's name. The car may even have finance on it.
I'd advise the OP to dig deeply. It seems lots of these scams operate by the dealer offloading cars to mates and staff below the going rate, sometimes to settle debts to them. This, together with a lack of paperwork, could be the proof that the transaction was fraudulent from the start.
9mm said:
The Police were quick to tell my friend that the V5 proved nothing in terms of ownership and quote "possession is 9/10ths of the law so it's a civil matter". We simply turned that around with a liberal does of "no comment" and "what car?" when they came calling investigating a 'theft'..
This is my point.A tactic which involves knowledgable theft and relys upon lying to the police when they come knocking, and potentially lying in an interview is a dangerous game.
If there is a genuine 3rd party owner, then doing that won't end nicely.
This sounds like a nightmare and my thoughts are with the real owner. Proof of ownership keeps popping up here and it astounds me that the v5c is not this, tbh what actually is? The v5c should be a legal document for ownership and responsibility for the car (taxing, insuring and mot'ing), which the dvla manage tightly and not in the washy washy manner they do. Ie transfers being done without accurate signatures or even signatures, and should perhaps even include signed proofs/receipts of sale.
Far too many grey and 'what if' areas popping up with this story, surely it should so much more black and white!?
Far too many grey and 'what if' areas popping up with this story, surely it should so much more black and white!?
Mr2Mike said:
JustinP1 said:
This is my point.
A tactic which involves knowledgable theft and relys upon lying to the police when they come knocking, and potentially lying in an interview is a dangerous game.
I agree, but is it theft to take what is yours to start with?A tactic which involves knowledgable theft and relys upon lying to the police when they come knocking, and potentially lying in an interview is a dangerous game.
The agreement between the OP and the dealer is that the dealer becomes the OP's agent - effectively and extension to the OP himself in order to sell the car to the third party.
If the dealer has acted lawfully in his obligation to sell the car, then the car belongs to someone else. The only thing that remains is a debt between the OP and the dealer due to their agency contract.
The only time where the OP could consider taking the car back would be IF the car has not yet been sold, as then, as you say, you cannot steal something which is yours.
richie99 said:
But if you bought, in good faith, a car which turned out to be stolen, wouldn't the old bill be round PDQ to take it and tell you it wasn't yours?
They might do yes.However, there's no evidence that the dealer has stolen the OP's car. All that has happened to date is that the dealer owes the OP a sum relating to an agency contract.
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