Potential to loose £10k from the sale of my car! HELP! SCAM

Potential to loose £10k from the sale of my car! HELP! SCAM

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JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
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OP - the problem you have is that 'your' car is no longer yours, it is simply the dealer who owes you cash.

The dealer may be having cashflow problems, or may be going bust.

Either way, from experience, you need to do two things:

1) He will pay his bills in the order of 'who shouts loudest'. You need to shout the loudest.

2) You need to act decisively and quickly.


There's a variety of ways forward. The most lawful ones would be to see a solicitor who will warn that you are taking legal action. That might be enough for him to stop messing around. However, it does seem that this is not an isolated incident.

Other options include more direct action which might not need to be any more forceful than simply turning up at his dealership, saying hello, and saying you were in the area, and you came to collect your cash in case the bank transfer was a problem. That way, you can both go to the bank, he can withdraw and you can pay in.

I've done that with a small dealer, and he was happy to do that.

Wills2

22,669 posts

174 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
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Monkeynut21 said:
Wills2 said:
Isn't it HALO? I think I remember that from late unpleasantness.
High Altitude Low Opening or High Altitude HIGH Opening.
It was more of an attempt to shoehorn in a Ronin quote. wink

9mm

3,128 posts

209 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
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STW2010 said:
22Rgt said:
V8forweekends said:
You won't loose anything.
The poor guys lost his car and all you can do is pick up on his grammar??
tt.
Says the SAS fantasist rolleyes
Give it a rest ffs.

Vaud

50,291 posts

154 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
OP - the problem you have is that 'your' car is no longer yours, it is simply the dealer who owes you cash.

The dealer may be having cashflow problems, or may be going bust.

Either way, from experience, you need to do two things:

1) He will pay his bills in the order of 'who shouts loudest'. You need to shout the loudest.

2) You need to act decisively and quickly.


There's a variety of ways forward. The most lawful ones would be to see a solicitor who will warn that you are taking legal action. That might be enough for him to stop messing around. However, it does seem that this is not an isolated incident.

Other options include more direct action which might not need to be any more forceful than simply turning up at his dealership, saying hello, and saying you were in the area, and you came to collect your cash in case the bank transfer was a problem. That way, you can both go to the bank, he can withdraw and you can pay in.

I've done that with a small dealer, and he was happy to do that.
This is good advice. The OP is being used as free cash flow for the business, cheaper than a bank loan. You need to be the biggest "issue" to get any kind of resolution, but expect 1 billion excuses first.

9mm

3,128 posts

209 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
I don't have time to write a detailed reply but in what has happened to the OP happened to a close friend of mine. Police weren't interested - "civil matter, possession is 9/10ths of the law", etc, etc.

The car was located and taken (using the spare key) to a secure lockup not associated with the owner. Cue an almost immediate visit from Bib investigating theft of said car. So they were blanked and the story ended with the original owner confirming ownership. IIRC the 'new owner' couldn't produce any receipt for his purchase and didn't have the V5 which meant he also hadn't taxed the car.

So my advice, based on experience, is take it back, hide it, and then argue about who owns it from a position of strength.

Vaud

50,291 posts

154 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
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9mm said:
I don't have time to write a detailed reply but in what has happened to the OP happened to a close friend of mine. Police weren't interested - "civil matter, possession is 9/10ths of the law", etc, etc.

The car was located and taken (using the spare key) to a secure lockup not associated with the owner. Cue an almost immediate visit from Bib investigating theft of said car. So they were blanked and the story ended with the original owner confirming ownership. IIRC the 'new owner' couldn't produce any receipt for his purchase and didn't have the V5 which meant he also hadn't taxed the car.

So my advice, based on experience, is take it back, hide it, and then argue about who owns it from a position of strength.
But if it has actually been sold, then the end buyer has bought it in good faith - plus how will it be found in your scenario?

9mm

3,128 posts

209 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Vaud said:
9mm said:
I don't have time to write a detailed reply but in what has happened to the OP happened to a close friend of mine. Police weren't interested - "civil matter, possession is 9/10ths of the law", etc, etc.

The car was located and taken (using the spare key) to a secure lockup not associated with the owner. Cue an almost immediate visit from Bib investigating theft of said car. So they were blanked and the story ended with the original owner confirming ownership. IIRC the 'new owner' couldn't produce any receipt for his purchase and didn't have the V5 which meant he also hadn't taxed the car.

So my advice, based on experience, is take it back, hide it, and then argue about who owns it from a position of strength.
But if it has actually been sold, then the end buyer has bought it in good faith - plus how will it be found in your scenario?
I'll let a lawyer give a definitive answer but my understanding is that buying something in good faith doesn't make it yours. Obviously this situation is a bit more complicated but I can only reiterate what happened in my case. Once the car was re-acquired, there was a lot of argy bargy about evidence of a real sale taking place and clearly it didn't exist. The OP's case is on the surface of things different but it may well be that the car wasn't really sold at all, or if it was, by some strange coincidence it was to one of the dealer's staff or mates at a knock down price...

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
9mm said:
I'll let a lawyer give a definitive answer but my understanding is that buying something in good faith doesn't make it yours. Obviously this situation is a bit more complicated but I can only reiterate what happened in my case. Once the car was re-acquired, there was a lot of argy bargy about evidence of a real sale taking place and clearly it didn't exist. The OP's case is on the surface of things different but it may well be that the car wasn't really sold at all, or if it was, by some strange coincidence it was to one of the dealer's staff or mates at a knock down price...
That may be true. However, I would say it is dangerous going down that route.

If a proper sale has taken place, title of the car will have gone to someone else.

You can't take someone else's car any more than you can burgle their house. The fact that you used to own the car is irrelevant. The new buyer owes you nothing, and all the dealer owes you is cash.

If the facts were slightly different in your case, or the police officer investigating took a different stance, you could have landed yourself in serious hot water.

9mm

3,128 posts

209 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
9mm said:
I'll let a lawyer give a definitive answer but my understanding is that buying something in good faith doesn't make it yours. Obviously this situation is a bit more complicated but I can only reiterate what happened in my case. Once the car was re-acquired, there was a lot of argy bargy about evidence of a real sale taking place and clearly it didn't exist. The OP's case is on the surface of things different but it may well be that the car wasn't really sold at all, or if it was, by some strange coincidence it was to one of the dealer's staff or mates at a knock down price...
That may be true. However, I would say it is dangerous going down that route.

If a proper sale has taken place, title of the car will have gone to someone else.

You can't take someone else's car any more than you can burgle their house. The fact that you used to own the car is irrelevant. The new buyer owes you nothing, and all the dealer owes you is cash.

If the facts were slightly different in your case, or the police officer investigating took a different stance, you could have landed yourself in serious hot water.
No question it was risky, but given the alternative was goodbye to £20K, all parties felt it was worth it.

I guess, as with so many of these posts, it's hard to say what's best without seeing every last detail.

What was particularly interesting in my case was the contrast between Police unwillingness to assist with a fraud and their willingness to assist someone (with no proof of ownership) claiming their car had been stolen.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
9mm said:
JustinP1 said:
9mm said:
I'll let a lawyer give a definitive answer but my understanding is that buying something in good faith doesn't make it yours. Obviously this situation is a bit more complicated but I can only reiterate what happened in my case. Once the car was re-acquired, there was a lot of argy bargy about evidence of a real sale taking place and clearly it didn't exist. The OP's case is on the surface of things different but it may well be that the car wasn't really sold at all, or if it was, by some strange coincidence it was to one of the dealer's staff or mates at a knock down price...
That may be true. However, I would say it is dangerous going down that route.

If a proper sale has taken place, title of the car will have gone to someone else.

You can't take someone else's car any more than you can burgle their house. The fact that you used to own the car is irrelevant. The new buyer owes you nothing, and all the dealer owes you is cash.

If the facts were slightly different in your case, or the police officer investigating took a different stance, you could have landed yourself in serious hot water.
No question it was risky, but given the alternative was goodbye to £20K, all parties felt it was worth it.

I guess, as with so many of these posts, it's hard to say what's best without seeing every last detail.

What was particularly interesting in my case was the contrast between Police unwillingness to assist with a fraud and their willingness to assist someone (with no proof of ownership) claiming their car had been stolen.
If the V5 was in your name then the odds were somewhat in your favour to take such a risk.

In the OP's case, the V5 may be on someone else's name. The car may even have finance on it.

9mm

3,128 posts

209 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
9mm said:
JustinP1 said:
9mm said:
I'll let a lawyer give a definitive answer but my understanding is that buying something in good faith doesn't make it yours. Obviously this situation is a bit more complicated but I can only reiterate what happened in my case. Once the car was re-acquired, there was a lot of argy bargy about evidence of a real sale taking place and clearly it didn't exist. The OP's case is on the surface of things different but it may well be that the car wasn't really sold at all, or if it was, by some strange coincidence it was to one of the dealer's staff or mates at a knock down price...
That may be true. However, I would say it is dangerous going down that route.

If a proper sale has taken place, title of the car will have gone to someone else.

You can't take someone else's car any more than you can burgle their house. The fact that you used to own the car is irrelevant. The new buyer owes you nothing, and all the dealer owes you is cash.

If the facts were slightly different in your case, or the police officer investigating took a different stance, you could have landed yourself in serious hot water.
No question it was risky, but given the alternative was goodbye to £20K, all parties felt it was worth it.

I guess, as with so many of these posts, it's hard to say what's best without seeing every last detail.

What was particularly interesting in my case was the contrast between Police unwillingness to assist with a fraud and their willingness to assist someone (with no proof of ownership) claiming their car had been stolen.
If the V5 was in your name then the odds were somewhat in your favour to take such a risk.

In the OP's case, the V5 may be on someone else's name. The car may even have finance on it.
The Police were quick to tell my friend that the V5 proved nothing in terms of ownership and quote "possession is 9/10ths of the law so it's a civil matter". We simply turned that around with a liberal does of "no comment" and "what car?" when they came calling investigating a 'theft'.

I'd advise the OP to dig deeply. It seems lots of these scams operate by the dealer offloading cars to mates and staff below the going rate, sometimes to settle debts to them. This, together with a lack of paperwork, could be the proof that the transaction was fraudulent from the start.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
9mm said:
The Police were quick to tell my friend that the V5 proved nothing in terms of ownership and quote "possession is 9/10ths of the law so it's a civil matter". We simply turned that around with a liberal does of "no comment" and "what car?" when they came calling investigating a 'theft'..
This is my point.

A tactic which involves knowledgable theft and relys upon lying to the police when they come knocking, and potentially lying in an interview is a dangerous game.

If there is a genuine 3rd party owner, then doing that won't end nicely.

boobles

15,241 posts

214 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
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CarAbuser said:
A room filled with powerfully built company directors with backpacks filled with frozen sausages. He will surely concede.
So you wouldn't be slightly pissed if this happened to you then?

Goodluck OP, to many car sale's men out there giving others a bad reputation.

pinseeker

144 posts

194 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
This sounds like a nightmare and my thoughts are with the real owner. Proof of ownership keeps popping up here and it astounds me that the v5c is not this, tbh what actually is? The v5c should be a legal document for ownership and responsibility for the car (taxing, insuring and mot'ing), which the dvla manage tightly and not in the washy washy manner they do. Ie transfers being done without accurate signatures or even signatures, and should perhaps even include signed proofs/receipts of sale.

Far too many grey and 'what if' areas popping up with this story, surely it should so much more black and white!?

Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

254 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
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JustinP1 said:
This is my point.

A tactic which involves knowledgable theft and relys upon lying to the police when they come knocking, and potentially lying in an interview is a dangerous game.
I agree, but is it theft to take what is yours to start with?

Vaud

50,291 posts

154 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Mr2Mike said:
I agree, but is it theft to take what is yours to start with?
Yes. As it's probably a civil claim for an unpaid contract with the car dealer. The end buyer is not involved from the POV of the OP.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
Mr2Mike said:
JustinP1 said:
This is my point.

A tactic which involves knowledgable theft and relys upon lying to the police when they come knocking, and potentially lying in an interview is a dangerous game.
I agree, but is it theft to take what is yours to start with?
No. However, if the car has been sold, the car does not belong to the OP.

The agreement between the OP and the dealer is that the dealer becomes the OP's agent - effectively and extension to the OP himself in order to sell the car to the third party.

If the dealer has acted lawfully in his obligation to sell the car, then the car belongs to someone else. The only thing that remains is a debt between the OP and the dealer due to their agency contract.

The only time where the OP could consider taking the car back would be IF the car has not yet been sold, as then, as you say, you cannot steal something which is yours.

richie99

1,116 posts

185 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
But if you bought, in good faith, a car which turned out to be stolen, wouldn't the old bill be round PDQ to take it and tell you it wasn't yours?

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
quotequote all
richie99 said:
But if you bought, in good faith, a car which turned out to be stolen, wouldn't the old bill be round PDQ to take it and tell you it wasn't yours?
They might do yes.

However, there's no evidence that the dealer has stolen the OP's car. All that has happened to date is that the dealer owes the OP a sum relating to an agency contract.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 28th January 2015
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It's so important to do internet searches as part of research.