Speeding on black box insurance policies
Discussion
Somebody I know has a telematics insurance policy on their car and has done for some time. They are a safe but enthusiastic driver, driving significantly (6 points+ territory) in excess of the speed limit where conditions allow, generally sticking to the limit in 30 zones, built up areas etc. They have never received any communication from their insurer about this and the box does not affect their manner of driving.
It got me thinking, and my guess is that the insurer would only take action on this were a claim to arise, otherwise they would have little interest in looking into the matter unless the driving data showed obvious dangerous driving.
I'd be interested to know if there have been cases in the past with black box insurance where the insurer has taken some form of action on serial speeders. I also wonder if there is a consensus on whether telematics data could/has been used to secure a speed-related conviction against a driver and the validity (if any) of insurer telematics data in speed-related offences.
It got me thinking, and my guess is that the insurer would only take action on this were a claim to arise, otherwise they would have little interest in looking into the matter unless the driving data showed obvious dangerous driving.
I'd be interested to know if there have been cases in the past with black box insurance where the insurer has taken some form of action on serial speeders. I also wonder if there is a consensus on whether telematics data could/has been used to secure a speed-related conviction against a driver and the validity (if any) of insurer telematics data in speed-related offences.
there was a case where the data from a tracker in a hire car was used in court against someone, can't remember the details, i think they ran someone over, they weren't speeding at the time, but had been driving way over the limit on previous occasions
I think it is fairly common for these policies to include a clause to cancel the policy if you are detected majorly exceeding the speed limit, usually doing over 100, but they won't report you to the police. Insurers are unlikely to willingly hand over data to the police, they are keen to get these blackboxes into cars and any sort of move against drivers them would really limit uptake.
They may in some cases have no choice, if the police are able to get a court order for the data they would have to comply. In this country i suspect the courts would be happy to issue such an order for the most pathetic of reasons.
I think it is fairly common for these policies to include a clause to cancel the policy if you are detected majorly exceeding the speed limit, usually doing over 100, but they won't report you to the police. Insurers are unlikely to willingly hand over data to the police, they are keen to get these blackboxes into cars and any sort of move against drivers them would really limit uptake.
They may in some cases have no choice, if the police are able to get a court order for the data they would have to comply. In this country i suspect the courts would be happy to issue such an order for the most pathetic of reasons.
BertBert said:
I think the question from the OP is what action the Insurers might take rather than plod.
Bert
That was one of the objectives I agree. However:Bert
McFist said:
...I also wonder if there is a consensus on whether telematics data could/has been used to secure a speed-related conviction against a driver and the validity (if any) of insurer telematics data in speed-related offences.
...hence my reply.With this technology available we should make them mandatory to anyone connected with the lucrative speeding business. That's ALL police, "Safety" camera partnership business owners and those out on the roads raising invoices, magistrates. These devices should automatically report speeding offences and NIPs should be issued just as if they'd been caught by camera.
These folks are firm advocates of the speed kills mantra so would be pleased to blaze the trail.
These folks are firm advocates of the speed kills mantra so would be pleased to blaze the trail.
Soov535 said:
He is likely to have his cover cancelled (if he hasn't already) and if he has an accident you can bet your ringpiece that the insurers will use the data as an excuse not to pay.
Police will also find the data very interesting.
Presumably there are terms and conditions for the box in question that will describe how the policy works. Who's the provider of the ins OP?Police will also find the data very interesting.
Bert
Insurers are not the police. How you drive only matters to them in terms of comparing your driving style to the aggregated data and seeing which risk bracket ie likelihood of a claim you fall Into and pricing accordingly.
Data will not be disclosed to the police without a legal compulsion to do so. I doubt that the police will be ripping dashboards off to get to the box, or unplugging stuff that's wired into a car at the roadside.
Data will absolutely not be shared with other insurers. It's commercially sensitive information and potentially leads to a competitive advantage. Why would you share that info with your competitors?
Quite often data is not as detailed as you'd think.
I expect this to be a 50 page thread with all sorts of wibble spouted by tinfoil hat wearing freemen on the land in short order.
Data will not be disclosed to the police without a legal compulsion to do so. I doubt that the police will be ripping dashboards off to get to the box, or unplugging stuff that's wired into a car at the roadside.
Data will absolutely not be shared with other insurers. It's commercially sensitive information and potentially leads to a competitive advantage. Why would you share that info with your competitors?
Quite often data is not as detailed as you'd think.
I expect this to be a 50 page thread with all sorts of wibble spouted by tinfoil hat wearing freemen on the land in short order.
Edited by LoonR1 on Thursday 29th January 17:40
LoonR1 said:
I expect this to be a 50 page thread with all sorts of wibble spouted by tinfoil hat wearing freemen on the land in short order.
supermono said:
With this technology available we should make them mandatory to anyone connected with the lucrative speeding business. That's ALL police, "Safety" camera partnership business owners and those out on the roads raising invoices, magistrates. These devices should automatically report speeding offences and NIPs should be issued just as if they'd been caught by camera.
These folks are firm advocates of the speed kills mantra so would be pleased to blaze the trail.
These folks are firm advocates of the speed kills mantra so would be pleased to blaze the trail.
Soov535 said:
He is likely to have his cover cancelled (if he hasn't already) and if he has an accident you can bet your ringpiece that the insurers will use the data as an excuse not to pay.
Police will also find the data very interesting.
Police will also find the data very interesting.
Soov535 said:
He is likely to have his cover cancelled (if he hasn't already) and if he has an accident you can bet your ringpiece that the insurers will use the data as an excuse not to pay.
Police will also find the data very interesting.
Really? No thought to the contract between the two parties? no consideration for the RTA?Police will also find the data very interesting.
Edited by LoonR1 on Thursday 29th January 17:38
eybic said:
I'll bet that come renewal time, they will use the collected data against him and bump his premium. I wonder if insurers will share telematics data with each other?????
Nope, ABI made the decision that the data received from telematics boxes actually belongs to the policyholder/Driver not the insurer.I'm unsure how other insurers are operating it atm but the one I work for only has a limited number of people (including myself) who have access to the data.
Requests for the data have to be logged too, can't just go in and view on a whim, I believe the police have requested it in the past but it isn't a case of just seizing the data there's a number of DP procedures they need to fulfill and the insurer needs to be satisfied before they will release it.
Of course if there was a court order to release the data then that's a different story but it isn't a case that the police can just ring the insurer and a call centre agent just pulls up the info in front of them.
Edit
Rloon1 pretty much sums up the same in a previous post, hadn't seen it.
ZOLLAR - does the system just record position and speed or the limit at that position as well. The reason that is ask is that the speed limits on my satnav are often incorrect to the road markings and temporary signs, especially on motorways. I get a speed recorder at 100 is an easy but but 65 on a motley could be legal depending on how up to date the map tiles are.
Starfighter said:
ZOLLAR - does the system just record position and speed or the limit at that position as well. The reason that is ask is that the speed limits on my satnav are often incorrect to the road markings and temporary signs, especially on motorways. I get a speed recorder at 100 is an easy but but 65 on a motley could be legal depending on how up to date the map tiles are.
Do you mean the limit for the road?As far as I'm aware and I'll be honest in that I'm fairly new to the data in the last few months it doesn't look at the speed limits on the particular road.
Primarily it records the driving behaviour: heavy breaking, heavy acceleration, heavy cornering etc
It's worth remembering that the data is used in conjunction with current rating factors ratehr than replacing them, premiums aren't completely based on the data.
Although it's been out a few years now it's taking time for insurers to read and interpret the data accurately, as R1 says it's not as easy as just looking at a graph the data can be complicated, if the accident is quite serious with then an investigator would be sent out to the scene anyway so speed limits could be assessed then.
The main products out there are "plug and drive" devices, these fit into the ciggarette light and not wired into the car so the data received is actually quite limited.
It's not as Big Brother as many PH'ers think.
From what I've seen on the comparison websites recently they seem to be wanting to make it clear that the black boxes do not penalise you for excess speed or driving at night etc
They obviously had a lot of bad press when they cam out especially from youngsters who just wanted to enjoy the freedom driving can give. So they are trying to entice more people I would imagine
They obviously had a lot of bad press when they cam out especially from youngsters who just wanted to enjoy the freedom driving can give. So they are trying to entice more people I would imagine
We have just released an insurance telematics unit to a major UK insurer (sorry!). We've been testing it with them for some time - I have one in my car.
They tell us that they are only interested in the data sent to their server when an accident has occurred; they will look at the previous ~60s before the accient occured, and maybe 20s afterwards (car might still be moving...).
Otherwise all reported journey info stays on the server without being analysed, except to note if limited-miles policy is violated.
Of course, this could change...
They also report fewer claims/mile with the telematic unit in the car, cf. their other policies.
They tell us that they are only interested in the data sent to their server when an accident has occurred; they will look at the previous ~60s before the accient occured, and maybe 20s afterwards (car might still be moving...).
Otherwise all reported journey info stays on the server without being analysed, except to note if limited-miles policy is violated.
Of course, this could change...
They also report fewer claims/mile with the telematic unit in the car, cf. their other policies.
Edited by MG Ant on Thursday 29th January 16:15
We have had Incident data recorders fitted to our work cars for some years which can be downloaded as/when or used following an incident to look at specifics
The vehicles also broadcast their location in real time to our control room.
Recently a lot of our cars have also been fitted with a commercial Insurance company black box system.
This system records speed and manner of driving and locations providing route mapping.
It provides a traffic light system as to whether the speed limit is being adhered to or not and sends exception reports if certain parameters are exceeded.
Ie if you were caught speeding by the machine then you would get a curly finger if you could not justify lawful use.
So in essence they can 24hrs a day see :
where the car is
How long it went unused
Where it went
How it got there
How fast it went
how it was driven
How far it travelled
This is in a fleet of vehicles that covers massive mileage annually .
The fact that the vehicles record everything they do is known by all the users and this has modified driver behaviour and reduced the number of incidents the vehicles are involved in .
It has improved fuel consumption and reduced wear and tear.
So a 10-15% decrease in fuel usage and a simiiliar reduction in tyre wear for instance saves them very significant amounts of money
My employer is taking action on the information recorded on these black boxes
The vehicles also broadcast their location in real time to our control room.
Recently a lot of our cars have also been fitted with a commercial Insurance company black box system.
This system records speed and manner of driving and locations providing route mapping.
It provides a traffic light system as to whether the speed limit is being adhered to or not and sends exception reports if certain parameters are exceeded.
Ie if you were caught speeding by the machine then you would get a curly finger if you could not justify lawful use.
So in essence they can 24hrs a day see :
where the car is
How long it went unused
Where it went
How it got there
How fast it went
how it was driven
How far it travelled
This is in a fleet of vehicles that covers massive mileage annually .
The fact that the vehicles record everything they do is known by all the users and this has modified driver behaviour and reduced the number of incidents the vehicles are involved in .
It has improved fuel consumption and reduced wear and tear.
So a 10-15% decrease in fuel usage and a simiiliar reduction in tyre wear for instance saves them very significant amounts of money
My employer is taking action on the information recorded on these black boxes
Edited by Earthdweller on Thursday 29th January 18:11
Edited by Earthdweller on Thursday 29th January 18:13
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