Been sold some lies and dreams

Been sold some lies and dreams

Author
Discussion

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
pork911 said:
blackmail then.
Morally maybe, but not legally.

JamieBurford

182 posts

129 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
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At least you got some money back, it could have been worse. Hopefully this guy will think twice before trying to rip off anyone else.

amusingduck

9,396 posts

135 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
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Escy said:
There has. I asked him for £500 back or I'd go to the police. He agreed but it took ages, finally had the last of it yesterday. £500 means i'll break even on the car. I have sold the engine for £750 (previously sold it for £2250 as the lie spec) so i've effectively lost £1500 (£1000 after his £500 back). I think i cut him a good deal really as i'd over paid for the car by more than £500 but if i'd tried him for more money i'd have probably got nothing. It turns out there is a long list of people who've been ripped off by him so anything back is a result.

I'm going to chalk it up to experience and move on.
You've lost 500 at most, no?

-1750 for the car
+750 for the engine
+500 from scammer

= 500 to recover from the rest of the car.

Butter Face

30,191 posts

159 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
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OP have I seen your username on the Civic forums? Do you break cars for a living?

kev b

2,708 posts

165 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
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What's to stop the OP going back to the scammer and asking for more cash, the guy is one strike away from prison, scam the scammer that's the way to deal with a con man.

I am assuming no receipt was given for the £500, as a previous poster says you cannot blackmail an innocent man.

pork911

7,086 posts

182 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
pork911 said:
blackmail then.
Morally maybe, but not legally.
really? talk me through that one then

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
pork911 said:
JustinP1 said:
pork911 said:
blackmail then.
Morally maybe, but not legally.
really? talk me through that one then
Put simply, it doesn't meet the stipulations of s21 of the Theft Act.

Given the background of the situation, he was not looking to gain for himself, nor cause a loss to another, and his demand was warranted.

If he was asking for £5000 mind you, then that would be unwarranted.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
kev b said:
I am assuming no receipt was given for the £500, as a previous poster says you cannot blackmail an innocent man.
It can and does happen.

An example might be that you get a local tradesman to do some work for you, you tell him the cheque would be in the post.

You don't pay him despite there being no good reason to not pay him, tell him that he will not get paid, and say that should he contact you again that you would write negative reviews of him all over the internet.

pork911

7,086 posts

182 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
Put simply, it doesn't meet the stipulations of s21 of the Theft Act.

Given the background of the situation, he was not looking to gain for himself, nor cause a loss to another, and his demand was warranted.

If he was asking for £5000 mind you, then that would be unwarranted.
it entirely meets the criteria

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
pork911 said:
JustinP1 said:
Put simply, it doesn't meet the stipulations of s21 of the Theft Act.

Given the background of the situation, he was not looking to gain for himself, nor cause a loss to another, and his demand was warranted.

If he was asking for £5000 mind you, then that would be unwarranted.
it entirely meets the criteria
No it doesn't. At all. Blackmail is a criminal act. It must be proven that the blackmailer knew that his demand was with menaces, and unwarranted.

He doesn't know this, as his demand for the return of money was entirely warranted in the circumstances.

pork911

7,086 posts

182 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
No it doesn't. At all. Blackmail is a criminal act. It must be proven that the blackmailer knew that his demand was with menaces, and unwarranted.

He doesn't know this, as his demand for the return of money was entirely warranted in the circumstances.
your reading of it all is quite strange, have you somehow gained great expertise on the intricacies of the offence since starting a thread about it in november?

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
pork911 said:
JustinP1 said:
No it doesn't. At all. Blackmail is a criminal act. It must be proven that the blackmailer knew that his demand was with menaces, and unwarranted.

He doesn't know this, as his demand for the return of money was entirely warranted in the circumstances.
your reading of it all is quite strange, have you somehow gained great expertise on the intricacies of the offence since starting a thread about it in november?
It's not intricate, it's pretty basic.

I do note that you've not explained which actions of the OP you have interpreted to constitute a criminal act. You've accused the OP - that's a bold statement - you should back it up.

Instead of starting an attack on me, if you genuinely think he's committed a criminal act, then shouldn't you be explaining why and helping him?


Edited by JustinP1 on Wednesday 4th March 13:26

boyse7en

6,671 posts

164 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
pork911 said:
JustinP1 said:
No it doesn't. At all. Blackmail is a criminal act. It must be proven that the blackmailer knew that his demand was with menaces, and unwarranted.

He doesn't know this, as his demand for the return of money was entirely warranted in the circumstances.
your reading of it all is quite strange, have you somehow gained great expertise on the intricacies of the offence since starting a thread about it in november?
It's not intricate, it's pretty basic.

I do note that you've not explained which actions of the OP you have interpreted to constitute a criminal act. You've accused the OP - that's a bold statement - you should back it up.

Instead of starting an attack on me, if you genuinely think he's committed a criminal act, then shouldn't you be explaining why and helping him?
The OP's "refund me £500 or I'll go to the Police/courts to recover my losses" doesn't seem much different to parking tickets that ask for £60 or they'll take you to court, or even NIPs which request £100 to stop it going to court.

pork911

7,086 posts

182 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
It's not intricate, it's pretty basic.

I do note that you've not explained which actions of the OP you have interpreted to constitute a criminal act. You've accused the OP - that's a bold statement - you should back it up.

Instead of starting an attack on me, if you genuinely think he's committed a criminal act, then shouldn't you be explaining why and helping him?


Edited by JustinP1 on Wednesday 4th March 13:26
a demand for money backed with a threat of going to the police, over a car his brother bought


OP is unconcerned, it was you who said it was legal and its your misinterpretation of blackmail and the circumstances I'm interested in

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
pork911 said:
a demand for money backed with a threat of going to the police, over a car his brother bought


OP is unconcerned, it was you who said it was legal and its your misinterpretation of blackmail and the circumstances I'm interested in
The OP said:

Escy said:
I bought a car in July 2014 on ebay. My brother picked it up for me and ran it for 6 months.
When confronted, the seller admitted that they had made a fraudulent misrepresentation in selling the car.

The OP could have taking civil action for the fraudulent misrepresentation, or he could have approached the police to see if they would run with it as a criminal matter. However, he is under no obligation to do either. Instead, the OP came to settlement with the seller and was given a refund that monies that he paid due to the fraud.

The demand for monies is warranted, and was admitted to be so by the seller. Blackmail would require not only the demand to be unwarranted, but also for the OP to know that his demand is unwarranted.

If you take that out of the equation, consider this scenario:

I wake up tomorrow morning to find a scrote rinding my pushbike off my drive, down the road. I shout: "If you don't bring that back in ten seconds, I'm calling the police to have you done for theft!".

Is that blackmail?

pork911

7,086 posts

182 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
JustinP1 said:
pork911 said:
a demand for money backed with a threat of going to the police, over a car his brother bought


OP is unconcerned, it was you who said it was legal and its your misinterpretation of blackmail and the circumstances I'm interested in
The OP said:

Escy said:
I bought a car in July 2014 on ebay. My brother picked it up for me and ran it for 6 months.
When confronted, the seller admitted that they had made a fraudulent misrepresentation in selling the car.

The OP could have taking civil action for the fraudulent misrepresentation, or he could have approached the police to see if they would run with it as a criminal matter. However, he is under no obligation to do either. Instead, the OP came to settlement with the seller and was given a refund that monies that he paid due to the fraud.

The demand for monies is warranted, and was admitted to be so by the seller. Blackmail would require not only the demand to be unwarranted, but also for the OP to know that his demand is unwarranted.

If you take that out of the equation, consider this scenario:

I wake up tomorrow morning to find a scrote rinding my pushbike off my drive, down the road. I shout: "If you don't bring that back in ten seconds, I'm calling the police to have you done for theft!".

Is that blackmail?
the OP said a lot of things which from this thread you'll see don't add up to him being the buyer from that seller and there were multiple technical let alone practical difficulties before him had he wanted to take civil action

regardless you are still confused on blackmail itself given your example, presumably hoping it is somehow analogous (it isn't)

you spout a lot, what exactly is your experience of the prosecution of blackmail?

Escy

Original Poster:

3,906 posts

148 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
Butter Face said:
OP have I seen your username on the Civic forums? Do you break cars for a living?
I don't.

Escy

Original Poster:

3,906 posts

148 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
amusingduck said:
You've lost 500 at most, no?

-1750 for the car
+750 for the engine
+500 from scammer

= 500 to recover from the rest of the car.
I guess it depends on which way you look at it. I've sold a £2250 engine and then had to re-sell it at £750. That's how i'd have been making a court claim. The advert for the car was basically an engine advert with the car tagged on. http://www.swapz.co.uk/swapz/4629597/Toyota_Celica...

It doesn't matter anymore now. I'm not going to screw the scammer for more money or grass him up, I asked him for £500 back which he gave me.

Pork911, you seem to have changed your tune on the whole blackmail thing. I used "leverage of threatening to go to the police"
pork911 said:
blackmail aside wink the leverage of threatening to go to the police seems his only realistic option (this far down the line)

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
pork911 said:
the OP said a lot of things which from this thread you'll see don't add up to him being the buyer from that seller and there were multiple technical let alone practical difficulties before him had he wanted to take civil action

regardless you are still confused on blackmail itself given your example, presumably hoping it is somehow analogous (it isn't)

you spout a lot, what exactly is your experience of the prosecution of blackmail?
We're getting nowhere in this discussion as you're avoiding answering questions about your assertions about the OP acting criminally with questions about me personally.

You're the one who has made the assertion that the OP's actions are blackmail. I think if that assertion was taken to the police they would laugh, with respect. smile

What's your experience with blackmail prosecutions?

pork911

7,086 posts

182 months

Wednesday 4th March 2015
quotequote all
Escy said:
Pork911, you seem to have changed your tune on the whole blackmail thing. I used "leverage of threatening to go to the police"
pork911 said:
blackmail aside wink the leverage of threatening to go to the police seems his only realistic option (this far down the line)
it wasn't advice and it being blackmail was flagged wink