Been sold some lies and dreams

Been sold some lies and dreams

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Escy

Original Poster:

3,906 posts

148 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
edit - here is a link for the car http://www.swapz.co.uk/swapz/4629597/Toyota_Celica...

I bought a car in July 2014 on ebay. My brother picked it up for me and ran it for 6 months. I've only just got my hands on it now. It was a Toyota Celica 190, the car was a complete dog but the engine had been re-built, I planned on breaking it. In the adver there was a picture of it on an engine stand all freshly painted. It had an invoice from a garage for £3700 which had loads of parts listed with prices, things like Mahle pistons, Piper cams, lightweight flywheel and upgraded clutch, ported and polished head, arp bolts, etc.

It has been re-built but all the parts are standard. I spoke to the Garage who's name is on the invoice. Turns out the bloke worked there during that time and he's made it up. He told me he owes them money and he's been done for fraud in the past.

I'm wondering what my options are and if the time scale between buying it and finding out the truth will be a problem. I'm going to get it in writing from the garage that the invoice is fraudulent.

If he's known to the police, do I contact them about this? I was going to see about a small claims court.

I sold the engine with the spec it supposedly was on ebay for £2250 (which i've cancelled) so I can prove the value of it.

Edited by Escy on Thursday 29th January 10:32


Edited by Escy on Thursday 29th January 18:23

BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
So looks like private sale with mis-representation. Technically you are within the time limits for claims via small claims court for example, but it sure is going to be hard after this amount of time.

Even if you have engine numbers to prove the duff engine is the one he supposedly put the super parts in, he will just deny and say you have had plenty of time to do another rebuild with standard parts and have sold on the funky bits.

Good luck, but don't hold out your hopes. My advice is sell what you have for what you can get and move on.

Bert

Escy

Original Poster:

3,906 posts

148 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
What about the fact he's fabricated false paperwork?

amusingduck

9,396 posts

135 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Escy said:
What about the fact he's fabricated false paperwork?
How can you prove that, how does the garage know what he put in the engine?

I doubt "those bits are not in the engine now" will cut it.

Escy

Original Poster:

3,906 posts

148 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
I've got an invoice for £3700 for an engine re-build done by a garage. Surely the garage will have corresponding paperwork and VAT details (they don't i asked them, they fitted ACL bearings but it's otherwise standard, they just gave it a fancy paint job). They know the guy I bought the car from, he used to work for them. It's clear he's falsified one of their invoices while he worked there (i've put this to him and he's not really denied it). They told me he's been charged with fraud in the past.

Makes me wonder if that side of it is more of a police matter rather than small claims?

I bought the car on the strength of an invoice which has turned out to be fraudulent.

Edited by Escy on Thursday 29th January 11:43

grumpyscot

1,277 posts

191 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Private Sale = Caveat Emptor

KFC

3,687 posts

129 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
grumpyscot said:
Private Sale = Caveat Emptor
st advice. You can't fraudulently sell something with fake invoices.

OP, either go to the police or go down the small claims route. It depends what your preferred end game is here.

Hainey

4,381 posts

199 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Caveat emptor my hairy backside.

What he has done is fraud. Plain and simple. I hope you nail the bent little bstard to the cross via small claims.

civicduty

1,857 posts

202 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
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Someone I know purchased a vauxhall tigra that had been modified for sprinting, the advert claimed that the car had a quaife box installed, but lo and behold when the box went kaput it was pulled apart and there wasn't a quaife part to be found.

He went to small claims, and got the money for the difference between the selling price with and without a quaife box fitted, or something along those lines.

So basically I am saying small claims is a viable route.

Although I could be talking st because the nurofen + is kicking in!!!

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
amusingduck said:
Escy said:
What about the fact he's fabricated false paperwork?
How can you prove that, how does the garage know what he put in the engine?

I doubt "those bits are not in the engine now" will cut it.
He doesn't have to.

All the OP needs to provide is that the invoice from the garage was a fraudulent document.

If it were me, I'd be keeping the garage sweet and friendly to get in writing from them that the invoice is not on their system, and the guy in question was an employee and that the invoice would have been produced fraudulently.

The invoice is documentary evidence of fraud.

Escy

Original Poster:

3,906 posts

148 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
I want some money back. I've offered him the chance to cover 50% of the money i'm out of pocket by which is £500. He's stalling but does seem willing to pay something (although i'm not going to hold me breath). Guess he doesn't want the police involved again, pretty sure he's done time (not a lot) for fraud. The garage might want a piece of him also as he's committed fraud in their name. Apparently he owes them loads of money as it is.

I'm thinking getting something off him might be my best option. If I take him to a small claims I could possibly end up having £5 a week drip fed to me.

Part of me thinks he should get nicked for it, but it doesn't help me get any money back.

KrazyIvan

4,341 posts

174 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Escy said:
I bought a car in July 2014 on ebay. My brother picked it up for me and ran it for 6 months.
Edited by Escy on Thursday 29th January 10:32
If I am reading this right, a 3rd party ran the car for 6 months before you even looked at it. If this is true, then I think this is where you may fall down, as the scrote will simply say they were fitted and someone else must have removed them, and as the car was not in your possession for a substantial period of time, your going to be hard pushed to prove otherwise....i would have thought.

KFC

3,687 posts

129 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
So turn up the heat then, tell him to give you £500 by x date or you're going to look to recover the money via small claims and report it to the police. He'll hopefully beg/steal/borrow the money from elsewhere to avoid getting arrested.

Escy

Original Poster:

3,906 posts

148 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
What was the time scale on the Tigra, from purchase to the box going and a claim being made?

Did you need any independent verification it was standard? Do I need a mechanic to inspect the engine or something while it's apart?

civicduty

1,857 posts

202 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Escy said:
What was the time scale on the Tigra, from purchase to the box going and a claim being made?

Did you need any independent verification it was standard? Do I need a mechanic to inspect the engine or something while it's apart?
I will ask my mate later and get back to you.

Escy

Original Poster:

3,906 posts

148 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
KrazyIvan said:
If I am reading this right, a 3rd party ran the car for 6 months before you even looked at it. If this is true, then I think this is where you may fall down, as the scrote will simply say they were fitted and someone else must have removed them, and as the car was not in your possession for a substantial period of time, your going to be hard pushed to prove otherwise....i would have thought.
The 3rd party is my brother, I won the auction, was going to have it for myself and break it for parts straight away. He needed a car so he bought it with his money and put it in his name. It's still in his name, i'm the 3rd party in this, he'd be the one making the claim so this is a non issue. I'm only posting up about it because I told him i'd buy it off him once he's finished with it, now i've found out it's all lies.

KFC

3,687 posts

129 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
KrazyIvan said:
If I am reading this right, a 3rd party ran the car for 6 months before you even looked at it. If this is true, then I think this is where you may fall down, as the scrote will simply say they were fitted and someone else must have removed them, and as the car was not in your possession for a substantial period of time, your going to be hard pushed to prove otherwise....i would have thought.
Any attempts for him to wriggle out are going to fall to bits as soon as judge hears about the fraudulent invoices though.

JustinP1

13,330 posts

229 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
KFC said:
So turn up the heat then, tell him to give you £500 by x date or you're going to look to recover the money via small claims and report it to the police. He'll hopefully beg/steal/borrow the money from elsewhere to avoid getting arrested.
I like the cut of your jib Mr KFC.

I'd do the same. Whilst having my phone record the conversation in my pocket.

QBee

20,903 posts

143 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
Civil case for recovery of the money - possible, but always be aware that if the defendant has no money or is just a slippery bd, then getting judgement is a waste of your time, travel costs and court fees.
Criminal case - you will have to convince the police/CPS to go with it and won't necessarily get your money back either.

So think calmly what you are trying to achieve....and then walk away and try to mitigate your loss, and learn from the experience. I DO feel for you, its's not fair by any stretch of the imagination.

For those reading this, always go and look at a car in working hours, so that you can check with garages and so on at the time. No point afterwards. And use one of the online/phone checks on the registration.
Anyone genuine won't mind you making those calls in front of him - if he is honest, he has nothing to hide. "Sorry mate, I don't know you from Adam, Of course I believe you, but I just need to check."

If you feel you will offend him but still want to do business, write down the relevant phone numbers and go away and call the garage etc.
Never meet up in a motorway service area or cafe, always go to the owner's house. Then he can go back inside while you can go away to "have a coffee" or to "go and withdraw the cash from the bank", while you make discrete checks. These things are best verified at the time.

Edited by QBee on Thursday 29th January 13:10

Escy

Original Poster:

3,906 posts

148 months

Thursday 29th January 2015
quotequote all
I'll try and sort something out with him directly. I'm being more than fair asking for half the money.

If I do go to the small claims court, what's my best plan of action for the engine? Sell it as standard, then claim the difference between it being standard and the £2250 I sold the dream engine for?