Caught out by insurer - help?
Discussion
LoonR1 said:
Utmost Good Faith is pretty well dead as a concept in Personal Lines Motor, since the introduction of the Consumer Insurance Act in early 2013. Insurers have to ask specific questions. They are, but if the answer is restricted to a specific set of answers (picklists) and your scenario isnt in there, then youve not doen any wrong in not declaring.
<wanders off to ask a Meerkat>"Have you had any motor accidents, claims or losses in the past 5 years, no matter who was at fault or if a claim was made?"
"(It is really important you tell us about all motor vehicle related accidents, claims or losses.)"
Tick yes, get a pop-up, which includes
"Who was at fault?"
"Was this claim made against your policy?"
"Was your NCD affected?"
So, given those choices, you'd be comfortable with a "No" answer being given?
TooMany2cvs said:
LoonR1 said:
Utmost Good Faith is pretty well dead as a concept in Personal Lines Motor, since the introduction of the Consumer Insurance Act in early 2013. Insurers have to ask specific questions. They are, but if the answer is restricted to a specific set of answers (picklists) and your scenario isn't in there, then you've not done any wrong in not declaring.
<wanders off to ask a Meerkat>"Have you had any motor accidents, claims or losses in the past 5 years, no matter who was at fault or if a claim was made?"
"(It is really important you tell us about all motor vehicle related accidents, claims or losses.)"
Tick yes, get a pop-up, which includes
"Who was at fault?"
"Was this claim made against your policy?"
"Was your NCD affected?"
So, given those choices, you'd be comfortable with a "No" answer being given?
Here's another example Speed Awareness Courses, some insurers ask about them and some don't. You can declare if you want, but the insurer wont be able to find out abot them unless you tell them.
Side issue, but as you love the pedantry here are a few questions and I'd love some truthful answers:
- Have you ever had stonechips or other minor bodywork corrected, outside insurance? Have you ever had this, even if not corrected, as it is a loss?
- Have you ever had some minor items stolen or damaged, such as dustcaps, hubcaps (back in the day), aerial snapped, minor dings from parking and either repaired these outside insurance, or not bothered to replace them
- Have you ever fitted a non OE part to any car you've ever had?
- Have you ever bought a second hand car? Di dyou have all aspects checked for OE compliance
Edited by LoonR1 on Monday 9th February 16:01
TooMany2cvs said:
LoonR1 said:
This isn't hard to grasp, why are you making it so difficult?
Because I'd quite like you to be explicit about whether you are encouraging people to lie to their insurers, on the basis that nobody's ever likely to know...LoonR1 said:
It's extremely unlikely that an insurer would decline to quote due to one non-fault on your claims history.
Utmost Good Faith is pretty well dead as a concept in Personal Lines Motor, since the introduction of the Consumer Insurance Act in early 2013. Insurers have to ask specific questions. They are, but if the answer is restricted to a specific set of answers (picklists) and your scenario isnt in there, then youve not doen any wrong in not declaring.
I'm not telling anyone what to do though, I'm giving you the facts and reality and whatever decision anyone makes is theirs to make themselves. Hiding behind "I though I was doing what Loon off the internet said was OK" isn't necessarily going to work. I know exactly what I mean, but despite me thinking that it's clear, others are muddying the waters with their flawed logic leaps.
Utmost Good Faith is pretty well dead as a concept in Personal Lines Motor, since the introduction of the Consumer Insurance Act in early 2013. Insurers have to ask specific questions. They are, but if the answer is restricted to a specific set of answers (picklists) and your scenario isnt in there, then youve not doen any wrong in not declaring.
I'm not telling anyone what to do though, I'm giving you the facts and reality and whatever decision anyone makes is theirs to make themselves. Hiding behind "I though I was doing what Loon off the internet said was OK" isn't necessarily going to work. I know exactly what I mean, but despite me thinking that it's clear, others are muddying the waters with their flawed logic leaps.
LoonR1 said:
Good stuff
Cheers again Loon, your insight is much appreciated.I think the question on Confused.com was 'Have you been involved and motor accidents in the last 5 years?' and the popup box says:
"Please give us details of any incidents, accidents or claims involving a vehicle that they've had in the last 5 years. Please document all incidents, including where they were not deemed to be at fault, where they were driving a different vehicle and incidents that have not yet been settled."
I didn't want to contravene that.
LoonR1 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
LoonR1 said:
This isn't hard to grasp, why are you making it so difficult?
Because I'd quite like you to be explicit about whether you are encouraging people to lie to their insurers, on the basis that nobody's ever likely to know...LoonR1 said:
I'm not telling anyone what to do though, I'm giving you the facts and reality and whatever decision anyone makes is theirs to make themselves. Hiding behind "I though I was doing what Loon off the internet said was OK" isn't necessarily going to work. I know exactly what I mean, but despite me thinking that it's clear, others are muddying the waters with their flawed logic leaps.
Yes, there is a parallel with modifications.
Some idiot snapping your aerial off is analogous with a PH sticker on the back of the car. A £2k claim that went through insurance? I'd say that goes beyond full-body-side religious messages, wouldn't you?
TooMany2cvs said:
OK, fair enough. "Encouraging" is probably the wrong word. Let's go with are you comfortable with people lying to their insurers?
Yes, there is a parallel with modifications.
Some idiot snapping your aerial off is analogous with a PH sticker on the back of the car. A £2k claim that went through insurance? I'd say that goes beyond full-body-side religious messages, wouldn't you?
I've said on here that I wouldn't declare a claim that was settled in full via a TP insurer, but that is my decision and I know what I'm doing should there be any issue down the line. Yes, there is a parallel with modifications.
Some idiot snapping your aerial off is analogous with a PH sticker on the back of the car. A £2k claim that went through insurance? I'd say that goes beyond full-body-side religious messages, wouldn't you?
I think the main point is that there is an assumption that insurers have granular and specific data on everyone, when nothing could be further from the truth. Many insurers stuggle to tie up their own internal databases, as underwriting and claims have quite often run off in different directions from the all in one (prehistoric) systems that they used to have. Insurers are good at aggregating data into groups and pricing as a result, albeit, the prcing goes out the window when they realise how uncmpaetitive the technical price is and instead rely on the marketing price.
Just to put one part of this thread to bed as well. The title is "Caught out by insurer", it really should read "caught out by The Highways Agency, who in turn hav econtacted my insurers, who are now contacting me to verify the detials". Insurers don't go round looking for claims and are wholly reactive on claims being reported to them, (ideally) by their policyholder, or a third party.
LoonR1 said:
martinbiz said:
I'm not sure what part of my post is hard for you to understand, the consequences are there to see. You lay yourself open to your ins co trying to recover any extra costs they may have incurred because you failed to report, how much more of a consequence do you need?
In 50% of your posts you seem to delight in ranting about how you would like things to be and citing anecdotal, off topic and legally incorrect examples rather than what is fact and what the law says.
Where, for example in an earlier post you got the idea that I suggested you should report it if you drive into a kerb and damaged your own wheel, God knows.
We'll be having Freeman of the Land drivel soon.
Freeman on the Land. really? I'll start with your bit about your assertion that an insurer will "try to recover any extra costs they may have incurred because you failed to report". In the past 10 years that I've been heading up motor claims operations for a couple of the largest UK insurers, we have never rejected a policyholder claim for own damage or any TP claim due to late notification. We regularly get first notifications of claims right at the cusp of limitation (3 years for injury, 6 for property) and have yet to reject one for this alone, we really would be on sticky ground there. We might knock back a customer's claim for their damage if they repair it and then send us the bill many months / years after paying it, but that's more likely to be for fraud reasons, than contractual disputes. One constant trait in all of these is that whenever we get TP first of a claim, then it is always a fault claim. Many of them are claims where our customer has buried their head in the sand and hoped it will go away and either fixed their own car out of their own pocket, or left the damage in place.In 50% of your posts you seem to delight in ranting about how you would like things to be and citing anecdotal, off topic and legally incorrect examples rather than what is fact and what the law says.
Where, for example in an earlier post you got the idea that I suggested you should report it if you drive into a kerb and damaged your own wheel, God knows.
We'll be having Freeman of the Land drivel soon.
We have NEVER gone back to any customer and asked them to pay the "extra costs", maybe you could let me know how you'd define them? Would we ask for Credit Hire in full? What if there were LPPs applicable, would that be our customer's fault for not letting us know, or would it be our fault for operational failings? Maybe the CHO was paying games and we can avoid them completely? Is a legal bill for advice received an additional cost? Or is it an acceptable cost and actually we're saving by getting in and making offers without the need for legal advice? What about medicals? Or rehab costs? Are they acceptable or should I be back charging them? Can I charge for incurred operational costs in handlign the claim? In fact as these claims tend to be crstallised in terms of indemnity cost, then the operational cost is minimal. Do I offset the operational cost off the indemnity cost to reduce this alleged custoemr liability fo the increased costs? It'd be good if you could show me where the contract allows for an insurer (and I'll take any insurer) to ask a as per the T&Cs of your insurance contract, most wouldn't and nor would an insurer expect you to declare or policyholder to pay the additional costs please. Even better would be one, just one genuine example where this has happened (it can't be due to fraud either) with supporting documentation.
The kerb and stonechip examples were purely examples where in your scenario you'd insist on reporting them, inform them.
Whilst were at it let's throw your legal obligations into the mix. Fact, in laymans terms, if you have an accident no matter how small and if there is the slightest chance there maybe damage to another's vehicle you are obliged to report it to the Police within 24hrs if no details were exchanged, the only caveat to this is that if you were unaware anything had happened, that's the law, so in a lot of circumstances the two kind of go hand in hand. So suggesting there is no need to report it is total b
ks and offering advice to the contrary is not the most helpful thing you could do. failing to stop/report carries 6-8 points and a stonking fine, so that will be fun when your renewal comes round.
martinbiz said:
Jeez....this is like pulling teeth! More off topic rants. The only way this thread will be put to bed is if you stop spouting ill informed rubbish. Where on earth in my 'scenario' as you put it, do I suggest the need to report a kerbed wheel or a stone chip, that is your analogy not mine. It is simply about a drivers obligation to report to their ins' co an accident/incident that may have caused damage to another's vehicle/property, end of. Yes there is in theory an obligation to report any incident but that is not what we are talking about here so give up on it. If you drive into a kerb or reverse into your garage door then report it if you like, but who would?
Whilst were at it let's throw your legal obligations into the mix. Fact, in laymans terms, if you have an accident no matter how small and if there is the slightest chance there maybe damage to another's vehicle you are obliged to report it to the Police within 24hrs if no details were exchanged, the only caveat to this is that if you were unaware anything had happened, that's the law, so in a lot of circumstances the two kind of go hand in hand. So suggesting there is no need to report it is total bks and offering advice to the contrary is not the most helpful thing you could do.
failing to stop/report carries 6-8 points and a stonking fine, so that will be fun when your renewal comes round.
You really aren't getting this are you?Whilst were at it let's throw your legal obligations into the mix. Fact, in laymans terms, if you have an accident no matter how small and if there is the slightest chance there maybe damage to another's vehicle you are obliged to report it to the Police within 24hrs if no details were exchanged, the only caveat to this is that if you were unaware anything had happened, that's the law, so in a lot of circumstances the two kind of go hand in hand. So suggesting there is no need to report it is total b
ks and offering advice to the contrary is not the most helpful thing you could do. failing to stop/report carries 6-8 points and a stonking fine, so that will be fun when your renewal comes round.
The examples I gave were clear losses that you have incurred whether insured or not and taking your obsession with absolute compliance with the T&Cs of your policy then you should be reporting / declaring them. A kerb is owned by someone, or an entity. Damage it and you should report / declare it as the council (as a potential owner) may expect you to repair / replace it.
You should also check your legal knowledge. Any RTA compulsion to report, such as you're referencing would be a statutory requirement and a criminal offence not to. Not declaring or reporting to your insurer would be a breach of contract amd a civil matter. Reporting it to the Police would not mean it gets reported to your insurer and vice versa. There is quite a bit of difference between the two organisations.
LoonR1 said:
martinbiz said:
Jeez....this is like pulling teeth! More off topic rants. The only way this thread will be put to bed is if you stop spouting ill informed rubbish. Where on earth in my 'scenario' as you put it, do I suggest the need to report a kerbed wheel or a stone chip, that is your analogy not mine. It is simply about a drivers obligation to report to their ins' co an accident/incident that may have caused damage to another's vehicle/property, end of. Yes there is in theory an obligation to report any incident but that is not what we are talking about here so give up on it. If you drive into a kerb or reverse into your garage door then report it if you like, but who would?
Whilst were at it let's throw your legal obligations into the mix. Fact, in laymans terms, if you have an accident no matter how small and if there is the slightest chance there maybe damage to another's vehicle you are obliged to report it to the Police within 24hrs if no details were exchanged, the only caveat to this is that if you were unaware anything had happened, that's the law, so in a lot of circumstances the two kind of go hand in hand. So suggesting there is no need to report it is total bks and offering advice to the contrary is not the most helpful thing you could do.
failing to stop/report carries 6-8 points and a stonking fine, so that will be fun when your renewal comes round.
You really aren't getting this are you?Whilst were at it let's throw your legal obligations into the mix. Fact, in laymans terms, if you have an accident no matter how small and if there is the slightest chance there maybe damage to another's vehicle you are obliged to report it to the Police within 24hrs if no details were exchanged, the only caveat to this is that if you were unaware anything had happened, that's the law, so in a lot of circumstances the two kind of go hand in hand. So suggesting there is no need to report it is total b
ks and offering advice to the contrary is not the most helpful thing you could do. failing to stop/report carries 6-8 points and a stonking fine, so that will be fun when your renewal comes round.
The examples I gave were clear losses that you have incurred whether insured or not and taking your obsession with absolute compliance with the T&Cs of your policy then you should be reporting / declaring them. A kerb is owned by someone, or an entity. Damage it and you should report / declare it as the council (as a potential owner) may expect you to repair / replace it.
You should also check your legal knowledge. Any RTA compulsion to report, such as you're referencing would be a statutory requirement and a criminal offence not to. Not declaring or reporting to your insurer would be a breach of contract amd a civil matter. Reporting it to the Police would not mean it gets reported to your insurer and vice versa. There is quite a bit of difference between the two organisations.
martinbiz said:
Nope my legal knowledge on this type of matter is fine thanks. But here we are, same thing again, funny thing is there seem to be quite a few posters on this thread that are disagreeing with your view, yes I know it's a criminal offence, hence the sentencing guidelines at the end of my post. So let me get this right you are now agreeing that although you need to report it to the police and that not doing so is criminal offence, it's still perfectly ok not to report it or should I say hide it from your ins' co. I really have heard it all now! There does come a time, as they say, that when in a hole stop digging. I must search some of your post history and try and find one where you've backed down, but somehow I think be I'll be a long time looking, so I'm out. I just hope nobody try's to use your dubious advice in practice.
Nice get out, but sadly your initial assertion was that if you don't report the claim, then an insurer will pass on the extra costs to you as the policyholder. I called that as a load of garbage and you have done nothing to answer the specific question I've raised on that. So here it is againPlease show me any insurer at all that has a statement anywhere in their product literature that says that they will pass costs back to you for late reporting.
In addition, I've asked you to define these "extra costs" which you've made no attempt to. Look back, there's a fairly long list of specific questions on those that could do with an answer.
You haven't addressed this. You've drifted off on tangents about criminal matters, which are vague and there are numerous examples on here in the last few weeks where the police have taken no action for failing to report accidents anyway. I have nothing at all to back down about. Everything I've written on here is factual and based on over a decade working within claims at a reasonably senior level.
There are some disagreeing, there are some agreeing. The volume of those agreeing or disagreeing, or even the fact that some are disagreeing doesn't make your or my point any stronger. It'd be a poor show if it did, after all I could say that there are some disagreeing with you as my rebuttal and you wouldn't see it as holding any weight as a rebuttal either.
I have no view either way on reporting it to the police, but I have never reported any accident that I've been involved in to them and I have never been prosecuted, or received any punishment as a result. However, I am not a criminal / motoring law expert and so wouldn't pass comment and expect to get away with spouting garbage. I'd expect one of the resident experts to pull me up on it.
Why even argue with loon? Just accept he knows his st and how he says the insurance industry works is generally how it works. Judging by his M3, collection of S1000rr's and the fact a trackday rarely gets mentioned in biker banter that he isn't attending the insurance industry clearly consider his opinion to be worth a lot of money so just take the free insight and move on FFS.
t and how he says the insurance industry works is generally how it works. Judging by his M3, collection of S1000rr's and the fact a trackday rarely gets mentioned in biker banter that he isn't attending the insurance industry clearly consider his opinion to be worth a lot of money so just take the free insight and move on FFS.
Quick update for anyone who is interested - i emailed, told them what had happened, held hands up, awaiting reply.
It has been over a week, no reply yet - not sure whether to chase up...
I'm guessing that this will have been marked on the insurers database either way, so i'll have to report an "accident" on next insurance quote?
I'll keep this thread updated - i know how annoying it is when reading a thread that goes nowhere.
It has been over a week, no reply yet - not sure whether to chase up...
I'm guessing that this will have been marked on the insurers database either way, so i'll have to report an "accident" on next insurance quote?
I'll keep this thread updated - i know how annoying it is when reading a thread that goes nowhere.
So that everyone knows what happens if you hit the barrier or any other infrastructure. You (your insurance) is liable for the costs incurred to repair / replace said item.
So, you've hit the barrier, the RTC may not actually have been your fault, but it was your car that hit the barrier. All vehicle registration numbers involved in the RTC are recorded, The vehicle that damaged the barrier is noted. you vehicle is recovered, either by yourself (If it's on the H/S, via the tel number given to you with your insurance, providing they can get there in a reasonable time) or by statutory recovery, which you will be billed for, and there are set prices depending on how damaged the vehicle is, if it's upright, if it's off the tarmac, etc ,etc.
Now the payment for the recovery / vehicle storage is a bill on it's own, completely different to cost of infrastructure damage.
Meanwhile the barrier is assessed by a MAC operator, as to how much damage has been caused, and is categorised, very badly damaged / long sections will be replaced / repaired immediately, those with relatively minor damage can be left for a later date.
Once the barrier has been replaced, usually by sub contractors, and all the bills have been sent into the MAC (Managing Agency Contractor) they then apply to the DVLA for vehicle keeper information for the vehicle that's hit the barrier, once obtained, the registered insurance for that vehicle is contacted about the payment required.
If it's your car that's done the damage, but wasn't the cause of the over-all RTC, then it's up to your insurance to claim from the culprits insurance for the costs involved for the damage that you caused.
When a friend of mine damaged a length of barrier and 3/4 uprights on a sliproad a few years ago, the bill was 3½k, it's probably gone up by now.
So, you've hit the barrier, the RTC may not actually have been your fault, but it was your car that hit the barrier. All vehicle registration numbers involved in the RTC are recorded, The vehicle that damaged the barrier is noted. you vehicle is recovered, either by yourself (If it's on the H/S, via the tel number given to you with your insurance, providing they can get there in a reasonable time) or by statutory recovery, which you will be billed for, and there are set prices depending on how damaged the vehicle is, if it's upright, if it's off the tarmac, etc ,etc.
Now the payment for the recovery / vehicle storage is a bill on it's own, completely different to cost of infrastructure damage.
Meanwhile the barrier is assessed by a MAC operator, as to how much damage has been caused, and is categorised, very badly damaged / long sections will be replaced / repaired immediately, those with relatively minor damage can be left for a later date.
Once the barrier has been replaced, usually by sub contractors, and all the bills have been sent into the MAC (Managing Agency Contractor) they then apply to the DVLA for vehicle keeper information for the vehicle that's hit the barrier, once obtained, the registered insurance for that vehicle is contacted about the payment required.
If it's your car that's done the damage, but wasn't the cause of the over-all RTC, then it's up to your insurance to claim from the culprits insurance for the costs involved for the damage that you caused.
When a friend of mine damaged a length of barrier and 3/4 uprights on a sliproad a few years ago, the bill was 3½k, it's probably gone up by now.
LoonR1 said:
There's nothing to more for them to say. They'll pay the claim and you'll lose some NCD (if it's not protected) and have to declare a fault claim for as long as any new insurer asks about claim history (usually 3 or 5 years depending on insurer).
I was surprised they did not ask for an increased premium for my current insurance policy? So i'll need to report this when searching for quotes etc i'm assuming this will be now on the insurers database? Cheers! trowelhead said:
I was surprised they did not ask for an increased premium for my current insurance policy? So i'll need to report this when searching for quotes etc i'm assuming this will be now on the insurers database? Cheers!
Your premium is set for the year once you take it from a claims perspective. It can't increase for that or any other reason driven by the insurer, it can if you instigate the change e.g. Move house, change car. Loon, I also replaced my car soon after and took out a seperate policy with the same provider.
In light of this i have emailed them and let them know about a claim going through - they have not yet responded. Is this something I need to make sure they acknowledge, as I'm assuming should the worst happen they would bring up the policy was taken out after an incident?
In light of this i have emailed them and let them know about a claim going through - they have not yet responded. Is this something I need to make sure they acknowledge, as I'm assuming should the worst happen they would bring up the policy was taken out after an incident?
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