contact order - family law

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Discussion

GT03ROB

13,207 posts

220 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
dba7108 said:
She didn't want me to have a word and the police said I couldn't do anything. We actually fell out over this as I felt I couldn't do anything.
You need to have a long talk with her about this. Take my word for it having been there, the consequences can be very serious. Next time she needs to press charges.

dba7108

Original Poster:

470 posts

167 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
boobles said:
So when you witnessed this, did you approach him & she stopped you from doing anything?
If so, why didn't you warn him that if he pulls a stunt like that again, there would be trouble?
No, i saw it through the window, called the police straight away and they advised not to go in, at that point she had pushed him off anyway and within 60 seconds a cop car had pulled up. Hats off to BIB they wanted to do something but they said it was down to her and she didnt as she thought it would make the situation worse as he may loose his job. My point is if a bloke is willing to do that then he lost any privileges on his job.

Devil2575

13,400 posts

187 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
GT03ROB said:
dba7108 said:
She didn't want me to have a word and the police said I couldn't do anything. We actually fell out over this as I felt I couldn't do anything.
You need to have a long talk with her about this. Take my word for it having been there, the consequences can be very serious. Next time she needs to press charges.
I agree. If you don't stop him now you could come home one day to find he's done much worse.

PorkInsider

5,877 posts

140 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
dba7108 said:
No, i saw it through the window, called the police straight away and they advised not to go in...
Am I reading this right?

You saw through the window your gf was being assaulted and you waited outside as the police told you to?

Surely I've got the wrong end of the stick here.

ETA: just thought I'd better add that my comments weren't meant to come across as a bit 'powerfully built' (if they did) but you must have the longest fuse of any man alive.

Edited by PorkInsider on Monday 16th February 14:38

boobles

15,241 posts

214 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
PorkInsider said:
Am I reading this right?

You saw through the window your gf was being assaulted and you waited outside as the police told you to?

Surely I've got the wrong end of the stick here.

ETA: just thought I'd better add that my comments weren't meant to come across as a bit 'powerfully built' (if they did) but you must have the longest fuse of any man alive.

Edited by PorkInsider on Monday 16th February 14:38
Exactly this. How on earth could you just stand there? What would you have done had it escolated to him beating her up or actaually raping her? Would you have ignored it & waited for the police?


Pretty certain that my other half would have dumped me if she knew that I stood there & did nothing whilst she was being attacked!

Kaelic

2,684 posts

200 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
Tell your GF to get a family solicitor engaged and apply for a contact order.

Get the court to draw up a sensible contact order and one in which he has to abide by certain rules, one of which should be he cannot get out of his car when collecting or returning the children (as long as they physically able to get themselves out of his car and into the house) there is then no reason for him to enter the house.

Get Cafcass involved as they will not want the kids to be seeing his behaviour, they can then put their recommendations to the court, and if he is causing issues they can do safeguarding stuff to ensure your partner is safe.

Also consider a restraining order except for contact etc...

regards

Fab32

380 posts

132 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
Fab32 said:
How old are the children?

What happened when children's services were involved? was it investigated under section 17 or section 47 of the children act? What was the outcome?

Was the ex partner reported to LADO, if he works with children or adult safeguarding if he works with adults?

If everything is as reported then you partner should be entitled to legal aid as she has been the victim of domestic abuse.

If she goes and visits a local solicitor they will assess her for legal aid, I would suggest she needs a non molestation order and then a contact plan either through mediation or court directed.

In the interim I suggest she sends him a letter explaining his behaviour to her is completely unacceptable and he is not welcome at her/your house and that if he does attend the property she will call the police. future contact will need to happen away from her/your home and the children will be dropped off at grandparents/friends/uncles wherever at x time and they need to be returned at x time for them to be collected 15 minutes later.

I will say if he aggressive, sexually violent and mentally unstable is he suitable to be having unsupervised contact? based on the scant information provided perhaps a friend of his or family needs to supervise him having contact?
I am aware its poor form to quote yourself but the OP seems intent on only defending himself rather than supplying more information so he can be properly helped.

OP can you answer any of my questions?

dba7108

Original Poster:

470 posts

167 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
Fab32 said:
Fab32 said:
How old are the children?

1) I always thought social services would do a good job, but to be honest they have been a complete joke. It was investigated under sec.17 as it had also come to light that he had left them alone and driven off to the petrol station. They are 4,5,7 & 10 yrs old. He admitted to social services during a meeting that he left them alone and he has swore in front of them and also told them they would never see their mother again. and social services said at least you have admitted your mistake and now you need to move on. F**kin joke.

What happened when children's services were involved? was it investigated under section 17 or section 47 of the children act? What was the outcome?

Was the ex partner reported to LADO, if he works with children or adult safeguarding if he works with adults? not sure what LADO is? he works with adult patients.

If everything is as reported then you partner should be entitled to legal aid as she has been the victim of domestic abuse. she spoke to a charity last week who were actually very helpful and have arranged for her to get divorce & c100 contact order (although looking at it I think you need to attend mediation?)

If she goes and visits a local solicitor they will assess her for legal aid, I would suggest she needs a non molestation order and then a contact plan either through mediation or court directed.

In the interim I suggest she sends him a letter explaining his behaviour to her is completely unacceptable and he is not welcome at her/your house and that if he does attend the property she will call the police. future contact will need to happen away from her/your home and the children will be dropped off at grandparents/friends/uncles wherever at x time and they need to be returned at x time for them to be collected 15 minutes later.

I will say if he aggressive, sexually violent and mentally unstable is he suitable to be having unsupervised contact? based on the scant information provided perhaps a friend of his or family needs to supervise him having contact?

She briefly used to drop them off at her mom's and he would collect but that fizzled out. It is very difficult and I am not a soft touch but what I havent wanted to do is go in throwing punches as Il end up in the nick. Although there have been many a time when I have thought sod this and felt like smashing him in. Im sure many a bloke would of done that.
I am aware its poor form to quote yourself but the OP seems intent on only defending himself rather than supplying more information so he can be properly helped.

OP can you answer any of my questions?
questions answered above . probably should of answered them here as bit hard to read now.


Edited by dba7108 on Monday 16th February 18:32

Fab32

380 posts

132 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
dba7108 said:
Fab32 said:
Fab32 said:
How old are the children?

1) I always thought social services would do a good job, but to be honest they have been a complete joke. It was investigated under sec.17 as it had also come to light that he had left them alone and driven off to the petrol station. They are 4,5,7 & 10 yrs old. He admitted to social services during a meeting that he left them alone and he has swore in front of them and also told them they would never see their mother again. and social services said at least you have admitted your mistake and now you need to move on. F**kin joke.

What happened when children's services were involved? was it investigated under section 17 or section 47 of the children act? What was the outcome?

Was the ex partner reported to LADO, if he works with children or adult safeguarding if he works with adults? not sure what LADO is? he works with adult patients.

If everything is as reported then you partner should be entitled to legal aid as she has been the victim of domestic abuse. she spoke to a charity last week who were actually very helpful and have arranged for her to get divorce & c100 contact order (although looking at it I think you need to attend mediation?)

If she goes and visits a local solicitor they will assess her for legal aid, I would suggest she needs a non molestation order and then a contact plan either through mediation or court directed.

In the interim I suggest she sends him a letter explaining his behaviour to her is completely unacceptable and he is not welcome at her/your house and that if he does attend the property she will call the police. future contact will need to happen away from her/your home and the children will be dropped off at grandparents/friends/uncles wherever at x time and they need to be returned at x time for them to be collected 15 minutes later.

I will say if he aggressive, sexually violent and mentally unstable is he suitable to be having unsupervised contact? based on the scant information provided perhaps a friend of his or family needs to supervise him having contact?

She briefly used to drop them off at her mom's and he would collect but that fizzled out. It is very difficult and I am not a soft touch but what I havent wanted to do is go in throwing punches as Il end up in the nick. Although there have been many a time when I have thought sod this and felt like smashing him in. Im sure many a bloke would of done that.
I am aware its poor form to quote yourself but the OP seems intent on only defending himself rather than supplying more information so he can be properly helped.

OP can you answer any of my questions?
questions answered above . probably should of answered them here as bit hard to read now.


Edited by dba7108 on Monday 16th February 18:32
Just to clarify was an assessment open due to drug overdose or the children being left alone, who made the referral to children's services?

Did your wife tell the social worker she was scared or he was intimidating her and is it mentioned in the assessment. Have the police ever been called before? Has your wife ever gone to the GP to discuss her concerns.

If the answer is no to those then it is unlikely she would get legal aid as she can't demonstrate she is the victim of domestic abuse. Given the further information you have supplied since my first message in my opinion she wouldn't get a non molestation order.

You would be wise to advise her to start making a paper trail of his antics. I also suggest she writes to him to advise him he is not welcome in the house.

Remember it's not the kids fault they should be shielded from of much of the messing about as possible lets not forget she thought he was good enough to make four children with over a long period of time




dba7108

Original Poster:

470 posts

167 months

Monday 16th February 2015
quotequote all
drug overdose (tho he didnt do a very good job more an attention seeking exercise) he has done this before apparently got talked off a bridge by police about 6 years ago.

police been called once before when he turned up at the house with a baseball bat and wanted to know where i was. this was in front of her and kids. He is obsessed with her and has told her he wont give up till im out her life.

she keeps a diary of calls/text messages and keeps messages on her phone this has been show to social services who just roll their eyes in disgust but nothing gets done. They said last week if he takes anymore tablets etc then they will take over and ensure he doesnt see kids.

I try to sheild kids from any of this so make a point of not 'kicking off' with their father as this will only hinder my relationship with them and to be honest thats what he wants - for me to start throwing punches so he can say im not safe etc (she recorded him saying this on the phone and played it to Soc Serv)

GT03ROB

13,207 posts

220 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
I'll repeat what I said earlier.... do not be slow to involve the force of law be it the police or restraining orders, etc.. The use of social services, etc., can be problematic for a variety of reasons & can be double edged. They can also be slow to respond & get results.

As I said I've been there & have had 7 1/2 years of it. You need to use the system early & with hard evidence or it will simply descend into he said/she said.

theguvernor

629 posts

130 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
OP this would be my steps, remove yourself from the situation personally, if you let feelings get involved this becomes 100x harder than it has to be (i know i've been there), treat it like a business deal.

This will get messy regardless, so be prepared for that.

First off, if there is no maintenance being paid sort that, it's a short call to DWPm they take your oh's details, how often he has the kids etc, they calculate everything based on tax codes/tax returns & outgoings like rent etc.

Secondly, apply for mediation, the court likes to see you have tried EVERYTHING before you go to court.
Google mediation, basically you meet in an office with someone, tell them why you're there, what you want.
Said person then goes to OH's ex, he will either agree/disagree, he may well say mediation won't work, in which case the mediator will give you a form to give to the court to say you've tried. (Think the initial mediation session is about £50 or so).

Apply to the court for a contact order/arrangements, fill in the various pages & file with the chequ (£200 or so i think).

You'll then get a directions hearing, which essentially you go there, say you want to sort out contact with a court order so you have something concrete in place, so there is a routine, it's good for everyone involved, children etc.
Magistrates will probably order CAFCASS to do a report, as long as theres no safeguarding issues this is generally a short interview on the phone, if there is safeguarding issues raised by either party, then it'll either be a longer interview in the home/office, OR they get social services involved.

Be prepared for all sorts of unsavoury things to get said, it's important not to let anger/emotion cloud your judgement, stick to facts, if someone says you're a druggie, say you'll take a drug test, but that the other party will need to pay for it, (that sort of thing).
You need to be seen to being reasonable, if you don't like the ex picking up from the house, explain why this is & say you're perfectly happy to meet the ex at the local cafe or supermarket for handover (somewhere public is good).

dba7108

Original Poster:

470 posts

167 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
Forgot about the maintenance - she called the CSA as he was only paying £285 a month for 4 kids when he should of been paying approx £360 based on his wages. They then sent her a letter to say he should pay £210 as the most up to date records they have are 2012 and if she wants it changed then he needs to call them - which he wont do in a million years.

she did go to mediation session and he said he would go but he never turned up.

thanks guvnor for your reply

TroubledSoul

4,589 posts

193 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
Sorry OP, but I fear this relationship is doomed. She will let him continue to control her and it sounds like you will be the bad guy if you try to do anything about it.

You can't help someone who won't help themselves and this is coming from someone who has seen the lasting effects of what dealing with an abusive partner can do to a woman.

The fact that you are also willing to do as you are told instead of doing what's right also doesn't bode well for ever putting an end to this.

Couldn't the Police have got a conviction on the strength of your statement as a witness perhaps? But you won't have given one as you weren't allowed.

Apologies if I sound harsh. It's not my intention, but something really needs to change here. I actively try to avoid any kind of physical confrontation as I worry about the consequences far too much, but there's nothing in this world that could have made me stand outside and watch my wife being assaulted! I wouldn't have even considered making a call to the Police because my immediate priority would have been to stop what was happening.

theguvernor

629 posts

130 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
dba7108 said:
Forgot about the maintenance - she called the CSA as he was only paying £285 a month for 4 kids when he should of been paying approx £360 based on his wages. They then sent her a letter to say he should pay £210 as the most up to date records they have are 2012 and if she wants it changed then he needs to call them - which he wont do in a million years.

she did go to mediation session and he said he would go but he never turned up.

thanks guvnor for your reply
CSA is dependant though, if for instance he got paid £1000 a month, if he pays £600 of that in a mortgage, then £350 into a pension scheme, he would only have £50 they would deduct from. You can ask them to re-calculate it at any time, you can say that there is a change of circumstances, etc.
I fear if your OH is telling you otherwise, then either she has heard them incorrectly, or she may not be telling you the whole truth.

It's also completely depedant upon if he has others he supports (so say he has a gf with a kid), it would reduce the payments, how many days/nights he has the kids a month will affect it, as it's calculated over a year.
The more he says he has them the less he pays. (Unless she disagrees).

If for instance you had to pay £200 for one child, just because you have 4 you don't pay £800, it's based on percentages.

I could quite easily get my CSA payments reduced, as mine were calculated when going through the contact proceedings, (when she stopped me seeing my little one all together) & i also contribute to a pension fund.
It's just not worth it though.

JumboBeef

3,772 posts

176 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
dba7108 said:
Forgot about the maintenance - she called the CSA as he was only paying £285 a month for 4 kids when he should of been paying approx £360 based on his wages. They then sent her a letter to say he should pay £210 as the most up to date records they have are 2012 and if she wants it changed then he needs to call them - which he wont do in a million years.
Something wrong there.

First, don't call, write. Always put everything in writing!

Second, she needs to contact them again and say she believes his circumstances have changed, ie: has more money now. They will reassess regardless of if he wants it or not. The CSA also do re-assessments as standard every two years or so.

I'm a CSA sufferer, having been through multiple reassessments mostly because my ex "believes" rolleyes I have more money and had contacted them to say so and once because I triggered the approx two year period.

Fab32

380 posts

132 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
dba7108 said:
drug overdose (tho he didnt do a very good job more an attention seeking exercise) he has done this before apparently got talked off a bridge by police about 6 years ago.

police been called once before when he turned up at the house with a baseball bat and wanted to know where i was. this was in front of her and kids. He is obsessed with her and has told her he wont give up till im out her life.

she keeps a diary of calls/text messages and keeps messages on her phone this has been show to social services who just roll their eyes in disgust but nothing gets done. They said last week if he takes anymore tablets etc then they will take over and ensure he doesnt see kids.

I try to sheild kids from any of this so make a point of not 'kicking off' with their father as this will only hinder my relationship with them and to be honest thats what he wants - for me to start throwing punches so he can say im not safe etc (she recorded him saying this on the phone and played it to Soc Serv)
So the children have a social worker currently then?

The police were called when he had a baseball bat but did nothing?

I see this sort of thing quite often, on the one had mother and new partner are saying he is a mad man, unstable, psychotic and always has been. On the other hand said mother has had a 8+ year relationship with said nutter and is happy to send the children off the weekend.




Red Devil

13,055 posts

207 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
GT03ROB said:
Recording conversations without notifying the other party is an offence I believe.
No it isn't. A lot of people fall for this myth.

Oftel said:
Can I record telephone conversations on my home phone?

Yes. The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use. Recording or monitoring are only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication - which can be a phone conversation or an e-mail - are made available to a third party, ie someone who was neither the caller or sender nor the intended recipient of the original communication.

Do I have to let people know that I intend to record their telephone conversations with me?

No, provided you are not intending to make the contents of the communication available to a third party. If you are you will need the consent of the person you are recording.
As the above makes clear the prohibition lies not in the recording but in disclosing the content to a third party. Of course that rather defeats the object of the exercise in this case.

Furthermore offences are criminal whereas a breach of RIPA is a a civil tort. So the caller would have to go to court to seek damages. Frankly I can't see that happening here.

All that is needed is to inform the ex-husband at the start of every call. He won't like it but she will be covered and the evidence will be available to the police should it be needed. It seems he is pretty unhinged, so won't be able to keep a lid on it every time. At some point he is bound to betray himself.

RemyMartin

6,759 posts

204 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
The fact she didnt press charges means she is still burning a candle for him and hopes to get back with him. You are just a rebound.

HTH.

wink

SteveSteveson

3,209 posts

162 months

Tuesday 17th February 2015
quotequote all
1) The only problem with recording is that it would probably be inadmissible in court. The police would be happy to hear it and act upon it, but would not be able to use it.

2) OP, please ignore the idiots saying "I would have punched him" or whatever. No they wouldn't. Internet warriors.

3) This sounds to me like classic domestic abuse. He is controlling bully still trying to exert influence and unfortunately your GF is still caught in the web in some way. The money may be needed, but ultimately that, and the guilt over the job, are just excuses. If you try and push her in the wrong way like people are suggesting it will probably drive her away. He still has control over her. Talking to him will make it worse and do nothing to help. Talk to a domestic violence charity. Their are plenty around that will help. They will be able to advise you what to do, who to talk to, or if you don't want that, just someone to reassure you and help you be supportive.

He needs to go, but until the control is broken your partner will probably try and resist doing anything.

Edited by SteveSteveson on Tuesday 17th February 16:21