When does a car change owner, when the money's paid or...

[AndyDubbya]

...when it's actually picked up?

I'm selling a car, and the buyer transferred the money to me yesterday and is picking it up today. We haven't done the paperwork yet, V5, receipts etc, but I now consider it his and I'm not driving it today, it's safely tucked up in the garage.

What if it had been nicked overnight though? (It hasn't been, this is only hypothetical). Was his car nicked, or mine? Who would claim on their insurance, me or him? I've already paid the money out for my next car so I can't just pay him back.

Just thinking & interested, if any legal bods can answer. Ta in advance.

[eatcustard]

Cant give you any legal advice, but as far as I am concerned when the other party has paid in full it belongs to them, unless agreement has been made otherwise.

[andy118run]

AndyDubbya said:

...when it's actually picked up?

I'm selling a car, and the buyer transferred the money to me yesterday and is picking it up today. We haven't done the paperwork yet, V5, receipts etc, .

just an armchair lawyer here but I would assume it's when you complete the paperwork - once you have both signed the relevant portion of the V5 to transfer ownership. Would he have insured it at the point he paid, or for when he intended to pick it up?

[illmonkey]

andy118run said:

AndyDubbya said:

...when it's actually picked up?

I'm selling a car, and the buyer transferred the money to me yesterday and is picking it up today. We haven't done the paperwork yet, V5, receipts etc, .

just an armchair lawyer here but I would assume it's when you complete the paperwork - once you have both signed the relevant portion of the V5 to transfer ownership. Would he have insured it at the point he paid, or for when he intended to pick it up?

The V5 even states it's not the form for ownership, but the person responsable for tax etc.

Once you've got money, I'd say it's his.

[mikeveal]

I'm not a legal bod, but...

If a contract is agreed and your the vendor then you owe the purchaser the goods. The goods are your responsibility until they are transferred from you to them in what ever manner you agreed.

So (forgetting its a car) if you agreed to post the goods, then any damage or loss is your responsibility up to the point of delivery. I'm not quite sure how the Post office would fit a car through the new fangled sizing thingy they use to decide how many stamps you should apply, or quite how you'd get it into a postbox once suitably jiffy-bagged. But cheerfully that's a problem for you and the Post Office, not for me.

In your case, the car is sat in your garage. If your garage burnt to the ground tonight taking the car with it, that's your problem, not the (almost) new owners. You still owe them a car.

The transaction will be completed when you have the money and the other fella (or bird, let's not get our knickers twisted about a bit of clearly unintentional sexism, eh Treacle?) has his car. Ownership finally changes when the last of these two things have been exchanged. Until that point, your car and his (or her, sigh) money.

From the point that a contract is agreed you owe the ladyman (this is getting silly) a car and they (Hallelujah!) owe you the money. If either party decide to pull out of the deal at any stage then they could be pursued by the other side for damages.

I sincerely HTH.

Usual disclaimer about me not being legally trained and about this being the Internet so all advice given is complete piffle, racist, sexist (sigh again), biggoted, anti-semitic, anti-semantic, needlessly fking sweary, crafted to inflame and antagonise, typed by bored delinkwent teenagers during halfterm after they've rendered their PCs almost completely ineffectual with particularly virulent viruses (appropriately) caught from pornography sites and of course generally wildly inaccurate. Personally, I prefer the acronym IANAL. Its a much shorter disclaimer that carries a very similar warning to the above. Although, let's face it, it could have horrible consequences for all involved if misinterpreted. Since its been brought up, for the record (and not that its any of your business), IdonotANAL.

Edited by mikeveal on Thursday 26th February 09:28

[TooMany2cvs]

When you both agree it is.

Think about the concept of a contract in a wider sense - delivery of goods might be in advance on invoicing, and payment might be due 30 days after invoicing.

For this particular question, once he pays, you owe him the car. If you can't deliver the car, then you owe him his money back. Don't cancel the insurance until he's taken it away and the paperwork's in the post on the way to Swansea.

[rewc]

AndyDubbya said:

...when it's actually picked up?

I'm selling a car, and the buyer transferred the money to me yesterday and is picking it up today. We haven't done the paperwork yet, V5, receipts etc, but I now consider it his and I'm not driving it today, it's safely tucked up in the garage.

What if it had been nicked overnight though? (It hasn't been, this is only hypothetical). Was his car nicked, or mine? Who would claim on their insurance, me or him? I've already paid the money out for my next car so I can't just pay him back.

Just thinking & interested, if any legal bods can answer. Ta in advance.

If it were at the roadside who would be responsible for the Road Tax? Who is responsible for the insurance as it has not been SORN'd? If the vehicle has not been transferred on the V5c then I believe it is still the responsibility of the RK. If the garage burnt down destroying the vehicle then the prospective owner could sue for return of their money.

[johnfm]

It is ta tricky subject, which is why properly drafted contracts for the sale and supply of goods may deal with transfer of title separately to transfer of risk.

[johnfm]

TooMany2cvs said:

When you both agree it is.

Think about the concept of a contract in a wider sense - delivery of goods might be in advance on invoicing, and payment might be due 30 days after invoicing.

For this particular question, once he pays, you owe him the car. If you can't deliver the car, then you owe him his money back. Don't cancel the insurance until he's taken it away and the paperwork's in the post on the way to Swansea.

Well, technically seller owes buyer the car as soon as they agree a deal.

[mikeveal]

rewc said:

If the garage burnt down destroying the vehicle then the prospective owner could sue for return of their money.

Actually, if the garage burnt down the prospective owner could technically source an equivalent car elsewhere (assuming the OP is unable to provide one). The prospective owner could then pursue the OP for the cost of the equivalent car. So if the OP sold his car for £10K, is sitting on the £10K and the only equivalent car the prospective owner can find is £13K then the OP could be liable for £13K, not £10K. Although the seller would need to be vindictive to pursue the OP for this and I'm sure that there would be other factors involved. But I believe this to be the general principle.

This would be the case if the OP pulled out of the deal for any reason. One example might be 'garage bunt down' another might be sellers remorse.

Please refer to the disclaimer in my earlier post.
I'm not an expert at writing disclaimers. I'm just an average joe really. A layman, although that term too could be horribly misinterpreted. I'm sure there will be stuff that should have been in my earlier disclaimer that I missed. Omissions from that disclaimer or this one may not be interpreted as de-facto inclusions. That is to say that if I failed to state that internet postings may be "X" (where "X" may be any adjective) you should not assume by my omission that all internet postings are not "X".Essentially, I do my best, take it or leave it at your own risk.

[Vee]

AndyDubbya said:

...when it's actually picked up?

I'm selling a car, and the buyer transferred the money to me yesterday and is picking it up today. We haven't done the paperwork yet, V5, receipts etc, but I now consider it his and I'm not driving it today, it's safely tucked up in the garage.

What if it had been nicked overnight though? (It hasn't been, this is only hypothetical). Was his car nicked, or mine? Who would claim on their insurance, me or him? I've already paid the money out for my next car so I can't just pay him back.

Just thinking & interested, if any legal bods can answer. Ta in advance.

No idea of legal stance but it is your car until they collect. I'd consider transfer of ownership once payment has been made, paperwork completed and the vehicle collected.
obviously you want the money cleared before letting the car go, don't you ? So there will always be a period of time between that happening and collection.
Therefore it is your responsibility to look after the car for a reasonable amount of time until the buyer collects. I'd say less than 24hrs is reasonable. Suddenly saying it's stolen and 'not my problem guv' is not.

Why couldn;t they collect it last night if the money had cleared yesterday ?

[AndyDubbya]

Vee said:

No idea of legal stance but it is your car until they collect. I'd consider transfer of ownership once payment has been made, paperwork completed and the vehicle collected.
obviously you want the money cleared before letting the car go, don't you ? So there will always be a period of time between that happening and collection.
Therefore it is your responsibility to look after the car for a reasonable amount of time until the buyer collects. I'd say less than 24hrs is reasonable. Suddenly saying it's stolen and 'not my problem guv' is not.

Why couldn;t they collect it last night if the money had cleared yesterday ?

We both wanted to be sure the money had cleared before they collected, tonight was the best time for collection for us both, so they set it up for yesterday to have a day's grace in case of cock-up.

Interesting selection of views though, seems like there's no definite consensus, although I can see the point of view that the deal isn't concluded til he takes it away.

Btw I'm happy to report it was still there this morning - it occurred to me that if it had been swiped overnight, my OP could've implicated me quite nicely!

[Devil2575]

FWIW IMHO, if the car is stolen or damaged before the new owner picks it up then you should refund his money. Legally I don't know, but morally you should sort it out.

[ging84]

The way things work with houses is, you must ensure it is insured from the point of exchange of contracts, essential, although it's not yours yet, you have agreed to buy it, and that doesn't change if it get's burnt to the ground.
Houses have clear written contracts which are several pages long, a private car sale doesn't
Even if the situation is different for a car, I think if the car got burned out, and you already have the money, if you delivered the wreck to the new owner, he'd have an awful time trying to convince a judge to make you return the money, i think the most sensible thing to do would be for you to both insure it, then the insurers can fight over who's it was in the unlikely event something happens to it.

[Twilkes]

Sofas have a very defined transferal of ownership:

http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DI598qec0NdI#t=7...

[JustinP1]

AndyDubbya said:

Interesting selection of views though, seems like there's no definite consensus, although I can see the point of view that the deal isn't concluded til he takes it away.

I can too... but it wouldn't be right in law. The law often goes with what is 'morally' right, and contract law is formed from more than 100 years of real cases coming to court, and becoming case laws.

I'm reasonably sure those that say that the car is yours for purposes of ownership if the garage burnt down might change view if the question was if you could lawfully return that money, change your mind, or even sell to someone else for a grand more.

If the shoe was on that foot, clearly the consensus would be that there is a contract in place, and the car belonged to the old buyer.

The principle in here, do you need to be in the same vicinity of a seller or item to buy it? Clearly not.

It could be implied that you owe the buyer a duty of care of the vehicle until he collects it, but that's a different matter.

[SK425]

JustinP1 said:

I can too... but it wouldn't be right in law. The law often goes with what is 'morally' right, and contract law is formed from more than 100 years of real cases coming to court, and becoming case laws.

I'm reasonably sure those that say that the car is yours for purposes of ownership if the garage burnt down might change view if the question was if you could lawfully return that money, change your mind, or even sell to someone else for a grand more.

If the shoe was on that foot, clearly the consensus would be that there is a contract in place, and the car belonged to the old buyer.

Going into the gnarly detail of it all..

Clearly the consensus would be that there is a contract in place and the OP couldn't return the money, change his mind or sell the car to someone else. But does that necessarily answer the question about precisely when ownership transfers?

Is the question even really about when ownership transfers? I think the question might actually be who is liable if the garage burns down and takes the car with it. Does the asnwer to that question necessarily have to be "the person who owns the car at that time"?

OP - glad your garage didn't burn down and the car was still there .

[Mr Taxpayer]

There are 2 issues here... ownership (title) and registration.
Ownership transfers at the point consideration (money) is exchanged. The buyer no longer owns the money, you do. The buyer now owns the car. Unless you have some complicated contract stating otherwise - highly unlikely.

Registration, i.e. who is the vehicles registered keeper, takes place when the DVLA is informed. You should do this as soon as reasonbly preacticable. You could delay telling the DVLA that you are no longer the vehicle keeper, but you will receive all speeding NIPs and threatening letters from aggrieved parking management companies.

In your hypothetical stolen scenario, it would be his property that was stolen. Provided you had taken all reasonble precautions (kept it locked, secured the keys, etc) there's be little he could do about. If you'd left it in the road with the keys ignition because it not yours you may have a civl problem. Flip it the other way; would you take a cheque and hand over the car?

Edited by Mr Taxpayer on Thursday 26th February 15:48

[AndyDubbya]

Until the last few replies, I was thinking it was still mine til he collected, but now I'm thinking that as it wouldn't be right for me to sell it to someone else once he'd paid, it was his once the money was transferred, and (you could argue) maybe even as soon as we'd agreed terms.

Either way, he's just driven off in it with a big smile, so everyone's happy. Thanks for all the input, it's been interesting to hear all the different views.

[Mopar440]

AndyDubbya said:

but now I'm thinking that as it wouldn't be right for me to sell it to someone else once he'd paid, it was his once the money was transferred,

So, had someone made you a better offer after you'd agreed to the sale, and payment was made and received by you?