Legality of slip road speed traps

[Chim]

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

tapereel said:

From my experience of stopping in a police car on a slip road to a dual-carrageway or motorway, a traffic officer won't do it if there is a danger to him or the public. Perhaps there are traffic officers that disragard the risk; I am yet to meet one.

They'll do a dynamic risk assessment with regard to the full circumstances.

Now you are hitting on an area that I am familiar with. If they are carrying out a risk assessment the first question is as below

Can this activity be undertaken easily without the need for Risk. Answer, yes it can.

But does that impact adversely on their ability to then catch up with the perpetrator in a timely manner?
It may still be the best local option if it can be done acceptably safely.

Your clutching at straws now

Safety over technical infringement. There is only one answer to this.

Acceptable safety over potentially unacceptable safety (again you are assuming it's always about prosecuting minor speed transgressions when you see them).

But parking on slips has already been deemed as totally unacceptable, as has excessive speeding I will grant you, when you have a choice though and this choice in only hindered by a slight reduction in pursuit time there can only be one answer, the safest alternative here is to take the slight hit on pursuit time

[vonhosen]

REALIST123 said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

tapereel said:

From my experience of stopping in a police car on a slip road to a dual-carrageway or motorway, a traffic officer won't do it if there is a danger to him or the public. Perhaps there are traffic officers that disragard the risk; I am yet to meet one.

They'll do a dynamic risk assessment with regard to the full circumstances.

Now you are hitting on an area that I am familiar with. If they are carrying out a risk assessment the first question is as below

Can this activity be undertaken easily without the need for Risk. Answer, yes it can.

But does that impact adversely on their ability to then catch up with the perpetrator in a timely manner?
It may still be the best local option if it can be done acceptably safely.

Your clutching at straws now

Safety over technical infringement. There is only one answer to this.

Acceptable safety over potentially unacceptable safety (again you are assuming it's always about prosecuting minor speed transgressions when you see them).

What the hell is 'unacceptable safety'?

Dangerous.

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

But parking on slips has already been deemed as totally unacceptable, as has excessive speeding I will grant you, when you have a choice though and this choice in only hindered by a slight reduction in pursuit time there can only be one answer, the safest alternative here is to take the slight hit on pursuit time

Parking on slips roads has not been deemed to be totally unacceptable (i.e. in all circumstances). It depends on the circumstances.

[Phatboy317]

vonhosen said:

I'm talking about length of site lines to the parked vehicle meaning it would be in view for such a length of time that it would not be a problem for vehicles travelling towards it at speeds in excess of 30mph to see & negotiate it in the absence of other hazards.

Only if you know there are no other hazards. If the van is concealing the presence of a pedestrian about to cross the road then 30mph is probably too fast.

vonhosen said:

The poorer lateral (relative to longitudinal) sight lines there & the proximity of all the aforementioned hazards (village, cemetery, houses, school etc) justify the 30mph limit.

You drive according to conditions, dictated partly by lines of sight.
If you can't stop comfortably within the distance you can see to be clear then you slow down. If things can encroach into your path very quickly then you slow down, and the quicker things can happen the more you need to slow down. And the shorter the lateral sight lines are, the quicker things can happen.

But the lateral sight lines only become of significance where there are houses, parked cars, children running around etc, and that's 100 metres ahead from where the van is. You can easily slow down from above 40mph to walking pace within that distance if you have to.

[vonhosen]

Phatboy317 said:

vonhosen said:

I'm talking about length of site lines to the parked vehicle meaning it would be in view for such a length of time that it would not be a problem for vehicles travelling towards it at speeds in excess of 30mph to see & negotiate it in the absence of other hazards.

Only if you know there are no other hazards. If the van is concealing the presence of a pedestrian about to cross the road then 30mph is probably too fast.

vonhosen said:

The poorer lateral (relative to longitudinal) sight lines there & the proximity of all the aforementioned hazards (village, cemetery, houses, school etc) justify the 30mph limit.

You drive according to conditions, dictated partly by lines of sight.
If you can't stop comfortably within the distance you can see to be clear then you slow down. If things can encroach into your path very quickly then you slow down, and the quicker things can happen the more you need to slow down. And the shorter the lateral sight lines are, the quicker things can happen.

But the lateral sight lines only become of significance where there are houses, parked cars, children running around etc, and that's 100 metres ahead from where the van is. You can easily slow down from above 40mph to walking pace within that distance if you have to.

The camera isn't measuring the speed of vehicles where it's parked, it's measuring them a distance from it, where there are such hazards.

[Chim]

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

But parking on slips has already been deemed as totally unacceptable, as has excessive speeding I will grant you, when you have a choice though and this choice in only hindered by a slight reduction in pursuit time there can only be one answer, the safest alternative here is to take the slight hit on pursuit time

Parking on slips roads has not been deemed to be totally unacceptable (i.e. in all circumstances). It depends on the circumstances.

There be them straws again, it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable. If you go back to your blanket exemption for officers it does not state anywhere in this that its acceptable for the police to park on a slip, its a cover all, this cover all is caveatted by Risk assessment of the dangers and I have already shown here that the risk assessment can not be justified for this manoeuvre/duty

[Mk3Spitfire]

Chim said:

it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable.

Accepted by whom? (Genuine question)

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

But parking on slips has already been deemed as totally unacceptable, as has excessive speeding I will grant you, when you have a choice though and this choice in only hindered by a slight reduction in pursuit time there can only be one answer, the safest alternative here is to take the slight hit on pursuit time

Parking on slips roads has not been deemed to be totally unacceptable (i.e. in all circumstances). It depends on the circumstances.

There be them straws again, it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable. If you go back to your blanket exemption for officers it does not state anywhere in this that its acceptable for the police to park on a slip, its a cover all, this cover all is caveatted by Risk assessment of the dangers and I have already shown here that the risk assessment can not be justified for this manoeuvre/duty

You are mistakenly conflating you not being allowed to do something with it automatically being unsafe whatever the circumstances.

You doing 71 in a 70 is illegal, but that doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.
You stopping on the hard shoulder to phone home & tell your family you'll be late for dinner is illegal, it doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.

The full circumstances determine whether something is acceptably safe or not in the circumstances, not it being outlawed for those without exemptions.

Ergo the fact a Police car is stopped on a slip road doesn't mean it's dangerous. it depends on the full circumstances.

[Chim]

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable.

Accepted by whom? (Genuine question)

Motorway regs, although not sure on bypasses but I would imagine the same applies.

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable.

Accepted by whom? (Genuine question)

Motorway regs, although not sure on bypasses but I would imagine the same applies.

Motorway regs do not apply to the slip road you provided a link to & something being outlawed for the populace does not mean it can't be done with an acceptable degree of safety.
Motorway regs apply to all motorways, there are no such regs for all A grade roads.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 1st March 19:43

[Mk3Spitfire]

Chim said:

Motorway regs, although not sure on bypasses but I would imagine the same applies.

Could you post a link to this literature?

[Chim]

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

But parking on slips has already been deemed as totally unacceptable, as has excessive speeding I will grant you, when you have a choice though and this choice in only hindered by a slight reduction in pursuit time there can only be one answer, the safest alternative here is to take the slight hit on pursuit time

Parking on slips roads has not been deemed to be totally unacceptable (i.e. in all circumstances). It depends on the circumstances.

There be them straws again, it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable. If you go back to your blanket exemption for officers it does not state anywhere in this that its acceptable for the police to park on a slip, its a cover all, this cover all is caveatted by Risk assessment of the dangers and I have already shown here that the risk assessment can not be justified for this manoeuvre/duty

You are mistakenly conflating you not being allowed to do something with it automatically being unsafe whatever the circumstances.

You doing 71 in a 70 is illegal, but that doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.
You stopping on the hard shoulder to phone home & tell your family you'll be late for dinner is illegal, it doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.

The full circumstances determine with something is acceptably safe, not it being outlawed for those without exemptions.

At the end of the day laws are mainly around common sense, if there where no laws in place I, as thinking person and of average intelligence, can work out that stopping on a slip road for any reason other than having broken down is a really stupid thing to do, I do not need motorway regs or a risk assessment to tell me this. All the risk assessments, conditions, circumstances etc do not change this, the only one that would change it would be if the slip road was not actually in use. The road is filled with idiots and the unobservant, I have also previously posted a perfectly viable and common scenario where it could easily result in an accident for even careful drivers.The officers in the car have precisely zero control over their situation

Back to the risk, is does not equate in any way imaginable.

[Phatboy317]

vonhosen said:

The camera isn't measuring the speed of vehicles where it's parked, it's measuring them a distance from it, where there are such hazards.

I'd be inclined to concede that point, except that the van is a distance past the end of the end of the built-up area, which means that it's likely catching people who speed up a bit as they reach the end of the built-up area, and, even worse, those who do tear around at inappropriately high speeds are only stopped after they've driven the entire length of the built-up area.

If the van was positioned in the middle of the built-up area then I'd likely be more accepting of it.

Edited by Phatboy317 on Sunday 1st March 19:48

[Chim]

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

Motorway regs, although not sure on bypasses but I would imagine the same applies.

Could you post a link to this literature?

If you read back to earlier posts, around page three I think, the regs are already quoted. Need to skip over the silly stuff prior to getting into the grown up discussion that is taking place and being enjoyed at the moment though

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

But parking on slips has already been deemed as totally unacceptable, as has excessive speeding I will grant you, when you have a choice though and this choice in only hindered by a slight reduction in pursuit time there can only be one answer, the safest alternative here is to take the slight hit on pursuit time

Parking on slips roads has not been deemed to be totally unacceptable (i.e. in all circumstances). It depends on the circumstances.

There be them straws again, it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable. If you go back to your blanket exemption for officers it does not state anywhere in this that its acceptable for the police to park on a slip, its a cover all, this cover all is caveatted by Risk assessment of the dangers and I have already shown here that the risk assessment can not be justified for this manoeuvre/duty

You are mistakenly conflating you not being allowed to do something with it automatically being unsafe whatever the circumstances.

You doing 71 in a 70 is illegal, but that doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.
You stopping on the hard shoulder to phone home & tell your family you'll be late for dinner is illegal, it doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.

The full circumstances determine with something is acceptably safe, not it being outlawed for those without exemptions.

At the end of the day laws are mainly around common sense, if there where no laws in place I, as thinking person and of average intelligence, can work out that stopping on a slip road for any reason other than having broken down is a really stupid thing to do, I do not need motorway regs or a risk assessment to tell me this. All the risk assessments, conditions, circumstances etc do not change this, the only one that would change it would be if the slip road was not actually in use. The road is filled with idiots and the unobservant, I have also previously posted a perfectly viable and common scenario where it could easily result in an accident for even careful drivers.The officers in the car have precisely zero control over their situation

Back to the risk, is does not equate in any way imaginable.

Laws are legislated because a sufficient number of us have not shown common sense in our judgement in relation to the activity, hence the need to legislate. That's not to say that some couldn't have adequately judged it, just that a sufficient number to cause the legislators concern have.

Of course they have some control over the level of risk by looking at all the circumstances & making a choice with due regard to all of them.
That's using judgement.

[Chim]

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable.

Accepted by whom? (Genuine question)

Motorway regs, although not sure on bypasses but I would imagine the same applies.

Motorway regs do not apply to the slip road you provided a link to & something being outlawed for the populace does not mean it can't be done with an acceptable degree of safety.
Motorway regs apply to all motorways, there are no such regs for all A grade roads.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 1st March 19:43

There is though a big"no stopping at any time sign" prior to entry on to the slip.

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable.

Accepted by whom? (Genuine question)

Motorway regs, although not sure on bypasses but I would imagine the same applies.

Motorway regs do not apply to the slip road you provided a link to & something being outlawed for the populace does not mean it can't be done with an acceptable degree of safety.
Motorway regs apply to all motorways, there are no such regs for all A grade roads.

There is though a big"no stopping at any time sign" prior to entry on to the slip.

There's no such sign on motorways because of the regs. You entering the motorway means all manner of rules come into play.
The point remains that there are no such regs on all A grade roads. You need signage in order to enforce each.

[Chim]

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

But parking on slips has already been deemed as totally unacceptable, as has excessive speeding I will grant you, when you have a choice though and this choice in only hindered by a slight reduction in pursuit time there can only be one answer, the safest alternative here is to take the slight hit on pursuit time

Parking on slips roads has not been deemed to be totally unacceptable (i.e. in all circumstances). It depends on the circumstances.

There be them straws again, it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable. If you go back to your blanket exemption for officers it does not state anywhere in this that its acceptable for the police to park on a slip, its a cover all, this cover all is caveatted by Risk assessment of the dangers and I have already shown here that the risk assessment can not be justified for this manoeuvre/duty

You are mistakenly conflating you not being allowed to do something with it automatically being unsafe whatever the circumstances.

You doing 71 in a 70 is illegal, but that doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.
You stopping on the hard shoulder to phone home & tell your family you'll be late for dinner is illegal, it doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.

The full circumstances determine with something is acceptably safe, not it being outlawed for those without exemptions.

At the end of the day laws are mainly around common sense, if there where no laws in place I, as thinking person and of average intelligence, can work out that stopping on a slip road for any reason other than having broken down is a really stupid thing to do, I do not need motorway regs or a risk assessment to tell me this. All the risk assessments, conditions, circumstances etc do not change this, the only one that would change it would be if the slip road was not actually in use. The road is filled with idiots and the unobservant, I have also previously posted a perfectly viable and common scenario where it could easily result in an accident for even careful drivers.The officers in the car have precisely zero control over their situation

Back to the risk, is does not equate in any way imaginable.

Laws are legislated because a sufficient number of us have not shown common sense in our judgement in relation to the activity, hence the need to legislate. That's not to say that some couldn't have adequately judged it, just that a sufficient number to cause the legislators concern have.

Of course they have some control over the level of risk by looking at all the circumstances & making a choice with due regard to all of them.
That's using judgement.

That though is my point, they are making a judgment based on risk, the fact that they have no control over the actions of the great unwashed in terms of how they approach and use the slip means that the risk is always there, it does not go away regardless of conditions, it may lessen due to a clear and bright day, it is still there though. I then go back to the point you raised, risk assessment, when you apply the first question in the risk assessment this particular duty fails it.

[Mk3Spitfire]

Chim said:

If you read back to earlier posts, around page three I think, the regs are already quoted. Need to skip over the silly stuff prior to getting into the grown up discussion that is taking place and being enjoyed at the moment though

Ta. The reams of multi quotes was a bit much to take in. What are ACPO's feelings on the subject?

[Chim]

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable.

Accepted by whom? (Genuine question)

Motorway regs, although not sure on bypasses but I would imagine the same applies.

Motorway regs do not apply to the slip road you provided a link to & something being outlawed for the populace does not mean it can't be done with an acceptable degree of safety.
Motorway regs apply to all motorways, there are no such regs for all A grade roads.

There is though a big"no stopping at any time sign" prior to entry on to the slip.

There's no such sign on motorways because of the regs. You entering the motorway means all manner of rules come into play.
The point remains that there are no such regs on all A grade roads. You need signage in order to enforce each.

I give you the signage on the slip in question, you can also note that its not exactly a clear sight slip road when entering

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.607068,-4.64735,...