Legality of slip road speed traps

[mph1977]

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable.

Accepted by whom? (Genuine question)

Motorway regs, although not sure on bypasses but I would imagine the same applies.

Motorway regs do not apply to the slip road you provided a link to & something being outlawed for the populace does not mean it can't be done with an acceptable degree of safety.
Motorway regs apply to all motorways, there are no such regs for all A grade roads.

There is though a big"no stopping at any time sign" prior to entry on to the slip.

There's no such sign on motorways because of the regs. You entering the motorway means all manner of rules come into play.
The point remains that there are no such regs on all A grade roads. You need signage in order to enforce each.

this is very much a flagellation of deceased equines point now

[Chim]

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

If you read back to earlier posts, around page three I think, the regs are already quoted. Need to skip over the silly stuff prior to getting into the grown up discussion that is taking place and being enjoyed at the moment though

Ta. The reams of multi quotes was a bit much to take in. What are ACPO's feelings on the subject?

Not much to say on it that I can find other than the following

Slip roads form part of the motorway and all motorway regulations still apply.

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

If you read back to earlier posts, around page three I think, the regs are already quoted. Need to skip over the silly stuff prior to getting into the grown up discussion that is taking place and being enjoyed at the moment though

Ta. The reams of multi quotes was a bit much to take in. What are ACPO's feelings on the subject?

Not much to say on it that I can find other than the following

Slip roads form part of the motorway and all motorway regulations still apply.

Inc Reg 16 (Reg 14 in Scotland).

[Cliftonite]

Chim said:

I give you the signage on the slip in question, you can also note that its not exactly a clear sight slip road when entering

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.607068,-4.64735,...

So the implication is that the police are stupid enough to park a car just around a bend on a Clearway?

[SK425]

Phatboy317 said:

SK425 said:

I do understand that point. Personally, I have a lot of difficulty with the idea that the responsibility for such an accident lies with anyone other than the unobservant driver. I accept others might view that point a little differently though.

I'm not trying to excuse unobservant drivers in any way, shape or form, but you will always get them, and the more opportunities you create for them to crash, the more they are likely to.

Assuming no other confounding factors in play, I think you've got to fk up your observation monumentally badly to manage to tangle with a stationary vehicle (let alone one that's deliberately designed and positioned to aid visibility) on a slip road that looks like this or like this. At least from the point of view of the road layout, I'd have to put either of those slip roads in the category of minimal concern for this issue.

I accept it is creating an opportunity for the unobservant to crash, but I'd have thought anyone who suffers a more than negligible chance of failing to negotiate the hazard on a slip road like that has got to be so unobservant that they're going to be lucky to make it to the end of their journey at all.

Edited by SK425 on Sunday 1st March 20:47

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

Mk3Spitfire said:

Chim said:

it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable.

Accepted by whom? (Genuine question)

Motorway regs, although not sure on bypasses but I would imagine the same applies.

Motorway regs do not apply to the slip road you provided a link to & something being outlawed for the populace does not mean it can't be done with an acceptable degree of safety.
Motorway regs apply to all motorways, there are no such regs for all A grade roads.

There is though a big"no stopping at any time sign" prior to entry on to the slip.

There's no such sign on motorways because of the regs. You entering the motorway means all manner of rules come into play.
The point remains that there are no such regs on all A grade roads. You need signage in order to enforce each.

I give you the signage on the slip in question, you can also note that its not exactly a clear sight slip road when entering

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.607068,-4.64735,...

Yes & that means 'you' can't stop there.
It doesn't mean (depending on circumstances) that it would be too dangerous for you to stop at a location along there, just that judgement has been removed from you by introducing an easy to administer blanket ban, but that doesn't apply to everybody.

[vonhosen]

Cliftonite said:

Chim said:

I give you the signage on the slip in question, you can also note that its not exactly a clear sight slip road when entering

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.607068,-4.64735,...

So the implication is that the police are stupid enough to park a car just around a bend on a Clearway?

Indeed.
Of course they wouldn't/shouldn't be stopped immediately off the bend, unless circumstances dictated they had to & then they'd put in place other measures such as signage & coned off lane from the roundabout.

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 1st March 20:51

[Chim]

Cliftonite said:

Chim said:

I give you the signage on the slip in question, you can also note that its not exactly a clear sight slip road when entering

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.607068,-4.64735,...

So the implication is that the police are stupid enough to park a car just around a bend on a Clearway?

Thats exactly where they where, its also quite a common spot for them.

Anyway, we seem to have come to an impasse, personally, I think I have won the debate Would imagine though that others disagree, not looking at you at all here Van,

Have enjoyed it though, after the initial nonsense, and have learned some stuff as well so all good. Thanks to Van and others for contributing and will bow out and leave to others to perhaps carry it on.

Edited by Chim on Sunday 1st March 20:51

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

But parking on slips has already been deemed as totally unacceptable, as has excessive speeding I will grant you, when you have a choice though and this choice in only hindered by a slight reduction in pursuit time there can only be one answer, the safest alternative here is to take the slight hit on pursuit time

Parking on slips roads has not been deemed to be totally unacceptable (i.e. in all circumstances). It depends on the circumstances.

There be them straws again, it has been accepted to be totally unacceptable. If you go back to your blanket exemption for officers it does not state anywhere in this that its acceptable for the police to park on a slip, its a cover all, this cover all is caveatted by Risk assessment of the dangers and I have already shown here that the risk assessment can not be justified for this manoeuvre/duty

You are mistakenly conflating you not being allowed to do something with it automatically being unsafe whatever the circumstances.

You doing 71 in a 70 is illegal, but that doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.
You stopping on the hard shoulder to phone home & tell your family you'll be late for dinner is illegal, it doesn't mean it's unacceptably safe when you do.

The full circumstances determine with something is acceptably safe, not it being outlawed for those without exemptions.

At the end of the day laws are mainly around common sense, if there where no laws in place I, as thinking person and of average intelligence, can work out that stopping on a slip road for any reason other than having broken down is a really stupid thing to do, I do not need motorway regs or a risk assessment to tell me this. All the risk assessments, conditions, circumstances etc do not change this, the only one that would change it would be if the slip road was not actually in use. The road is filled with idiots and the unobservant, I have also previously posted a perfectly viable and common scenario where it could easily result in an accident for even careful drivers.The officers in the car have precisely zero control over their situation

Back to the risk, is does not equate in any way imaginable.

Laws are legislated because a sufficient number of us have not shown common sense in our judgement in relation to the activity, hence the need to legislate. That's not to say that some couldn't have adequately judged it, just that a sufficient number to cause the legislators concern have.

Of course they have some control over the level of risk by looking at all the circumstances & making a choice with due regard to all of them.
That's using judgement.

That though is my point, they are making a judgment based on risk, the fact that they have no control over the actions of the great unwashed in terms of how they approach and use the slip means that the risk is always there, it does not go away regardless of conditions, it may lessen due to a clear and bright day, it is still there though. I then go back to the point you raised, risk assessment, when you apply the first question in the risk assessment this particular duty fails it.

No it doesn't.
It may still be the best option available if the risks can be sufficiently mitigated. The fact a less effective, less risky option exists doesn't mean it has to be taken. it's pointless doing the 2nd option if it doesn't achieve the aims of the task & the first can be used in adequate safety achieving the aims of the task.

[Phatboy317]

SK425 said:

I accept it is creating an opportunity for the unobservant to crash, but I'd have thought anyone who suffers a more than negligible chance of failing to negotiate the hazard on a slip road like that has got to be so unobservant that they're going to be lucky to make it to the end of their journey at all.

It's quite possible for some people to be less than observant for short periods, like if they happen to get distracted by something, and then fine for the rest of the journey.

Not trying to excuse it, just saying.

Edited by Phatboy317 on Sunday 1st March 21:06

[The Mad Monk]

Chim said:

Thats exactly where they where, its also quite a common spot for them.

Edited by Chim on Sunday 1st March 20:51

How do you know?

In your first post you told that it was your daughter, not you, who allegedly saw the police vehicle.

[Chim]

The Mad Monk said:

Chim said:

Thats exactly where they where, its also quite a common spot for them.

Edited by Chim on Sunday 1st March 20:51

How do you know?

In your first post you told that it was your daughter, not you, who allegedly saw the police vehicle.

No, go back and read properly, I said my daughter came in raving about it and it got me thinking, as I have said MULTIPLE times this is common practice here in Scotland and this is one the spots that they are often at.

[Roo]

Where they trying to catch speeders on the slip road or the dual carriageway?

Either way they'd need to be sufficiently down the slip that they'd be obvious to people driving down it.

[The Mad Monk]

Chim said:

will bow out and leave to others to perhaps carry it on.

Edited by Chim on Sunday 1st March 20:51

Not for the first time you have said that you will stop posting.

Will you actually stop now?

[herewego]

SK425 said:

Phatboy317 said:

SK425 said:

I do understand that point. Personally, I have a lot of difficulty with the idea that the responsibility for such an accident lies with anyone other than the unobservant driver. I accept others might view that point a little differently though.

I'm not trying to excuse unobservant drivers in any way, shape or form, but you will always get them, and the more opportunities you create for them to crash, the more they are likely to.

Assuming no other confounding factors in play, I think you've got to fk up your observation monumentally badly to manage to tangle with a stationary vehicle (let alone one that's deliberately designed and positioned to aid visibility) on a slip road that looks like this or like this. At least from the point of view of the road layout, I'd have to put either of those slip roads in the category of minimal concern for this issue.

I accept it is creating an opportunity for the unobservant to crash, but I'd have thought anyone who suffers a more than negligible chance of failing to negotiate the hazard on a slip road like that has got to be so unobservant that they're going to be lucky to make it to the end of their journey at all.

Edited by SK425 on Sunday 1st March 20:47

If there's lots of traffic I can easily imagine someone behind a large vehicle swapping from lane 2 to 1 just as they approach the parked car. You just have to think about how closely people follow one another these days.

[jith]

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

Quick google reveals this

Stopping and parking
When you stop and park, make sure you always park somewhere safe. It's important that you can be seen by others, as this will make your vehicle more secure. You must not block traffic and must pose no risk to anyone else. You should use the parking areas at truck stops, motorway service areas or car parks reserved for overnight use.
Parking at entry or exit slip roads is strictly forbidden. It is also forbidden to stop or park on hard shoulders unless it is an emergency

So if the above is correct why are speed traps exempt from this, it is obviously considered as a very hazardous thing to do, this then begs the question as to why it would appear not be a very hazardous thing to do because you are driving a patrol car.

Driving a Police car down Oxford Street on blue lights & two tones during the rush hour might be considered a hazardous thing, but a necessary part of the role.
Of course you wouldn't be allowed to do that, but they can.
Did somebody miss the reflective materials all over it & nearly hit it?
Was it preventing them getting down the road?

You're way out of order vonhosen. Up here these idiots are doing this with unmarked cars. And yes, it's bloody dangerous sitting diagonally on a slip road; particularly when it's not an emergency. But Sir Stephen has his targets to hit. Just a pity he wasn't one of them!

J

[johnao]

mph1977 said:

like so many of these threads it's pick one or more of the three following

1. free wibble
2. jealousy
3. unconscious incompetence / Dunning - Kruger

And also, don't forget, frequent dollops of pseudo-intellectual psychobabble.

[mph1977]

johnao said:

mph1977 said:

like so many of these threads it's pick one or more of the three following

1. free wibble
2. jealousy
3. unconscious incompetence / Dunning - Kruger

And also, don't forget, frequent dollops of pseudo-intellectual psychobabble.

see 3 above ...

a typical response of the unconsciously incompetent when it comes to things like training and governance.

[johnao]

mph1977 said:

johnao said:

mph1977 said:

like so many of these threads it's pick one or more of the three following

1. free wibble
2. jealousy
3. unconscious incompetence / Dunning - Kruger

And also, don't forget, frequent dollops of pseudo-intellectual psychobabble.

see 3 above ...

a typical response of the unconsciously incompetent when it comes to things like training and governance.

Ah! yes, the unconscious incompetent, they're a real pain aren't they. Why, oh why, can't they understand and appreciate the relevance of using psychobabble in trying to convey a sense of deep understanding, training and governance, just like the rest of us who've done training and governance can? I agree there's lots of them on here, it's just that I can't quite fathom out who they are. If I wasn't so unconsciously unconscious and incompetently incompetent I might have been able to work out to whom you were referring.

But, hey ho, tell me how does someone who thinks he's unconsciously competent know that that he's not unconsciously incompetent if he's unconscious?

[GreatGranny]

Personally I think that is not a safe place to park up for any reason.
Its a live carriageway.

From your initial post I thougt they were parked on the hard shoulder or none running lane.