Legality of slip road speed traps

[Chim]

vonhosen said:

You are conflating completely separate issues.
I'm not saying there aren't prosecutions of Police for dangerous driving, I'm saying there aren't prosecutions for exceeding the speed limit because it wasn't done safely.

You said that a motorway regs exemption can't be claimed where it isn't used in a safe controlled manner & it therefore is illegal under that legislation as the exemption can't be claimed. That's not true.
You've got to look for & prove an offence under other legislation because the exemption under the motorways regs remains irrespective of whether it was used in a safe controlled manner.
You are imposing your own restrictions on exemptions use, restrictions that are not made in the legislation.

Ok, lets say I accept this. How then do i as a member of the public raise an objection or a case against the police for what is clearly a very unsafe practice that is putting members of the public needlessly at risk or do we have to wait until an accident actually happens before it is investigated

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

You are conflating completely separate issues.
I'm not saying there aren't prosecutions of Police for dangerous driving, I'm saying there aren't prosecutions for exceeding the speed limit because it wasn't done safely.

You said that a motorway regs exemption can't be claimed where it isn't used in a safe controlled manner & it therefore is illegal under that legislation as the exemption can't be claimed. That's not true.
You've got to look for & prove an offence under other legislation because the exemption under the motorways regs remains irrespective of whether it was used in a safe controlled manner.
You are imposing your own restrictions on exemptions use, restrictions that are not made in the legislation.

Ok, lets say I accept this. How then do i as a member of the public raise an objection or a case against the police for what is clearly a very unsafe practice that is putting members of the public needlessly at risk or do we have to wait until an accident actually happens before it is investigated

https://www.scotland.police.uk/police-complaints/

[Vaud]

Chim said:

Ok, lets say I accept this. How then do i as a member of the public raise an objection or a case against the police for what is clearly a very unsafe practice that is putting members of the public needlessly at risk or do we have to wait until an accident actually happens before it is investigated

Why not post up the location and street view and allow wider discussion?

Caveated by, you weren't actually there, it's 2nd hand info?

[mph1977]

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

You are conflating completely separate issues.
I'm not saying there aren't prosecutions of Police for dangerous driving, I'm saying there aren't prosecutions for exceeding the speed limit because it wasn't done safely.

You said that a motorway regs exemption can't be claimed where it isn't used in a safe controlled manner & it therefore is illegal under that legislation as the exemption can't be claimed. That's not true.
You've got to look for & prove an offence under other legislation because the exemption under the motorways regs remains irrespective of whether it was used in a safe controlled manner.
You are imposing your own restrictions on exemptions use, restrictions that are not made in the legislation.

Ok, lets say I accept this. How then do i as a member of the public raise an objection or a case against the police for what is clearly a very unsafe practice that is putting members of the public needlessly at risk or do we have to wait until an accident actually happens before it is investigated

same as you make a complaint against any other service ...

you direct it to the relevant line manager who is likely to pass it on to Professional Standards if it has sufficient merit , deal within it using disciplinary process if it has merit or politely suggest that you future involves sex and travel if the complaint is of no basis , this of course can be taken further with a seperate complaint until such time as the Chief Officer deems you to be 'unreasonably persistant ' / 'a vexatious claimant' by which point you will probably be unemployable and have thousands of semi literate rambling posts on various forums and nonsensical you tube videos ... exactly how many you tube vids depends on whather you decide to become an agent provocateur / general intel nuisance ...

http://www.lgo.org.uk/publications/advice-and-guid...

Edited by mph1977 on Friday 27th February 00:12

[Chim]

Vaud said:

Chim said:

Ok, lets say I accept this. How then do i as a member of the public raise an objection or a case against the police for what is clearly a very unsafe practice that is putting members of the public needlessly at risk or do we have to wait until an accident actually happens before it is investigated

Why not post up the location and street view and allow wider discussion?

Caveated by, you weren't actually there, it's 2nd hand info?

As I said, a few times now, this is common practice, a practice that I have seen many many times, go back and you will see that another scottish poster has observed this a lot as well. Google maps though will not let me capture an image. If you want a look at a common speed trap junctions that I have observed have a look at Junction 4 Eastbound on the M8 or junction three south southbound on the M77

[Chim]

mph1977 said:

same as you make a complaint against any other service ...

you direct it to the relevant line manager who is likely to pass it on to Professional Standards if it has sufficient merit , deal within it using disciplinary process if it has merit or politely suggest that you future involves sex and travel if the complaint is of no basis , this cof course can be taken further with a seperate compalint until such time as the CHeif officer deems you to be 'unreasonably persistant ' / 'a vexatious claimant' by which point you will probably be unemployable and have thousands of semi literate rambling posts on various forums and nonsensical you tube videos ... exactly how many you tube vids depends on whather you decide to become an agent provocateur / general intel nuisance ...

You really are a complete and utter tit

[Vaud]

Chim said:

As I said, a few times now, this is common practice, a practice that I have seen many many times, go back and you will see that another scottish poster has observed this a lot as well. Google maps though will not let me capture an image. If you want a look at a common speed trap junctions that I have observed have a look at Junction 4 Eastbound on the M8 or junction three south southbound on the M77

So where did this incident happen? I'm not challenging your generic observation. But if you want to complain, you will need specifics. Google will let you share a link to the location.

The complaint may be better made by the affected party, but I would hold fire for a few days to get wider feedback?

[4rephill]

vonhosen said:

You are conflating completely separate issues.
I'm not saying there aren't prosecutions of Police for dangerous driving, I'm saying there aren't prosecutions for exceeding the speed limit because it wasn't done safely.

You said that a motorway regs exemption can't be claimed where it isn't used in a safe controlled manner & it therefore is illegal under that legislation as the exemption can't be claimed. That's not true.
You've got to look for & prove an offence under other legislation because the exemption under the motorways regs remains irrespective of whether it was used in a safe controlled manner.
You are imposing your own restrictions on exemptions use, restrictions that are not made in the legislation.

Von: You're dealing with someone who apparently cannot understand the simple concept of Police officers being granted exemptions from the Law in order to carry out their duties! - You might as well be talking to your front door!

[Chim]

Vaud said:

So where did this incident happen? I'm not challenging your generic observation. But if you want to complain, you will need specifics. Google will let you share a link to the location.

The complaint may be better made by the affected party, but I would hold fire for a few days to get wider feedback?

I have no intention of complaining, I came on here to discuss it in an adult kind of way foolishly thinking that it was an interesting point that may garner a debate. I have though been met by a wall of scoffing and rolling out of a generic line that the law does not apply to the police so therefore whatever they do is fine.

Leaving it here as its more hassle than its worth and will make note to self never to visit the anal section of PH that is Speed the Plod and the Law again.

Thanks for the input though, its appreciated.

Edited by Chim on Thursday 26th February 23:31

[jm doc]

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Where have I been arrogant or abusive towards you?
You asked a question & I gave you an answer telling you what the law is.
They are committing no offence under the legislation you quoted for stopping on motorways as part of their Police duty. The same legislation exempts them for that purpose.

No, you are merely being anal, I will point to the post above yours with regards the others. I would expand on this by stating that I hoped to enter into an interesting discussion on the topic, one where sensible discourse could be shared and view points taken. Instead I have encountered nothing other than rudeness and immaturity. In your case Vanhoosen you have provided nothing more than a prescriptive exemption statement that appears to take the stance that all and any activity carried out by the police on any given motorway, despite its legality or obvious danger to the public, is fine as they are expemt from the law.

That attitude actually disturbs me one hell of a lot more than anything else.

You keep talking about exempted behaviour as illegal behaviour. That very behaviour ceases to be illegal under the legislation for those exempted from it.
Just as it's illegal for you to exceed the speed limit, but it isn't for them to where they are doing so for a Police purpose (& again a Police purpose is very wooly).

There isn't any 'attitude' in my post, it's just matter of fact.
I'm merely presenting the factual answer to your question. The Police can stop on the motorways where you may not where it is part of their Police duty.

That doesn't mean I'm suggesting that the Police are above the law in any way, just they are acting within it when stopped on the motorway as part of their duty.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 26th February 22:11

To use that privilege in such a way that needlessly puts members of the public at risk is the issue here though. And parking on a live motorway lane in order to catch someone speeding is, I would suggest in most peoples eyes, an abuse of that privilege that we, through our elected representatives, have given to the Police.

[vonhosen]

Chim said:

Vaud said:

So where did this incident happen? I'm not challenging your generic observation. But if you want to complain, you will need specifics. Google will let you share a link to the location.

The complaint may be better made by the affected party, but I would hold fire for a few days to get wider feedback?

I have no intention of complaining, I came on here to discuss it in an adult kind of way foolishly thinking that it was an interesting point that may garner a debate. I have though been met by a wall of scoffing and rolling out of a generic line that the law does not apply to the police so therefore whatever they do is fine.

Leaving it here as its more hassle than its worth and will make note to self never to visit the anal section of PH that is Speed the Plod and the Law again.

Thanks for the input though, its appreciated

OP

Chim said:

Now correct me if I am wrong here but I imagine that parking of any form on a motorway slip is illegal as its obviously very dangerous.

Would be interested to hear the views on this and the legality of it.

You asked, you got, you complained that you got what you asked for.
At no time have I suggested the Police can do whatever they like.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 26th February 23:41

[mph1977]

Chim said:

mph1977 said:

same as you make a complaint against any other service ...

you direct it to the relevant line manager who is likely to pass it on to Professional Standards if it has sufficient merit , deal within it using disciplinary process if it has merit or politely suggest that you future involves sex and travel if the complaint is of no basis , this of course can be taken further with a seperate complaint until such time as the Chief Officer deems you to be 'unreasonably persistant ' / 'a vexatious claimant' by which point you will probably be unemployable and have thousands of semi literate rambling posts on various forums and nonsensical you tube videos ... exactly how many you tube vids depends on whather you decide to become an agent provocateur / general intel nuisance ...

You really are a complete and utter tit

having seen this pattern repeated many times across many organisations , i would argue otherwise ... most organisations have a 'unreasonably persistant complainant' policy becasue of people who complain endlessly after not accepting a full and complete explanation of the situation and the proposed course of remedial actions .

Edited by mph1977 on Friday 27th February 00:11

[vonhosen]

jm doc said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Where have I been arrogant or abusive towards you?
You asked a question & I gave you an answer telling you what the law is.
They are committing no offence under the legislation you quoted for stopping on motorways as part of their Police duty. The same legislation exempts them for that purpose.

No, you are merely being anal, I will point to the post above yours with regards the others. I would expand on this by stating that I hoped to enter into an interesting discussion on the topic, one where sensible discourse could be shared and view points taken. Instead I have encountered nothing other than rudeness and immaturity. In your case Vanhoosen you have provided nothing more than a prescriptive exemption statement that appears to take the stance that all and any activity carried out by the police on any given motorway, despite its legality or obvious danger to the public, is fine as they are expemt from the law.

That attitude actually disturbs me one hell of a lot more than anything else.

You keep talking about exempted behaviour as illegal behaviour. That very behaviour ceases to be illegal under the legislation for those exempted from it.
Just as it's illegal for you to exceed the speed limit, but it isn't for them to where they are doing so for a Police purpose (& again a Police purpose is very wooly).

There isn't any 'attitude' in my post, it's just matter of fact.
I'm merely presenting the factual answer to your question. The Police can stop on the motorways where you may not where it is part of their Police duty.

That doesn't mean I'm suggesting that the Police are above the law in any way, just they are acting within it when stopped on the motorway as part of their duty.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 26th February 22:11

To use that privilege in such a way that needlessly puts members of the public at risk is the issue here though. And parking on a live motorway lane in order to catch someone speeding is, I would suggest in most peoples eyes, an abuse of that privilege that we, through our elected representatives, have given to the Police.

A slip/hard shoulder isn't a live motorway lane.
I've provided a link above for complaints where there is a belief that Police have exceeded their authority.

[jm doc]

vonhosen said:

jm doc said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Where have I been arrogant or abusive towards you?
You asked a question & I gave you an answer telling you what the law is.
They are committing no offence under the legislation you quoted for stopping on motorways as part of their Police duty. The same legislation exempts them for that purpose.

No, you are merely being anal, I will point to the post above yours with regards the others. I would expand on this by stating that I hoped to enter into an interesting discussion on the topic, one where sensible discourse could be shared and view points taken. Instead I have encountered nothing other than rudeness and immaturity. In your case Vanhoosen you have provided nothing more than a prescriptive exemption statement that appears to take the stance that all and any activity carried out by the police on any given motorway, despite its legality or obvious danger to the public, is fine as they are expemt from the law.

That attitude actually disturbs me one hell of a lot more than anything else.

You keep talking about exempted behaviour as illegal behaviour. That very behaviour ceases to be illegal under the legislation for those exempted from it.
Just as it's illegal for you to exceed the speed limit, but it isn't for them to where they are doing so for a Police purpose (& again a Police purpose is very wooly).

There isn't any 'attitude' in my post, it's just matter of fact.
I'm merely presenting the factual answer to your question. The Police can stop on the motorways where you may not where it is part of their Police duty.

That doesn't mean I'm suggesting that the Police are above the law in any way, just they are acting within it when stopped on the motorway as part of their duty.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 26th February 22:11

To use that privilege in such a way that needlessly puts members of the public at risk is the issue here though. And parking on a live motorway lane in order to catch someone speeding is, I would suggest in most peoples eyes, an abuse of that privilege that we, through our elected representatives, have given to the Police.

A slip/hard shoulder isn't a live motorway lane.
I've provided a link above for complaints where there is a belief that Police have exceeded their authority.

I am pretty sure a slip road is a live motorway lane, the motorway signs are placed at the start of the slip

[vonhosen]

jm doc said:

vonhosen said:

jm doc said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Where have I been arrogant or abusive towards you?
You asked a question & I gave you an answer telling you what the law is.
They are committing no offence under the legislation you quoted for stopping on motorways as part of their Police duty. The same legislation exempts them for that purpose.

No, you are merely being anal, I will point to the post above yours with regards the others. I would expand on this by stating that I hoped to enter into an interesting discussion on the topic, one where sensible discourse could be shared and view points taken. Instead I have encountered nothing other than rudeness and immaturity. In your case Vanhoosen you have provided nothing more than a prescriptive exemption statement that appears to take the stance that all and any activity carried out by the police on any given motorway, despite its legality or obvious danger to the public, is fine as they are expemt from the law.

That attitude actually disturbs me one hell of a lot more than anything else.

You keep talking about exempted behaviour as illegal behaviour. That very behaviour ceases to be illegal under the legislation for those exempted from it.
Just as it's illegal for you to exceed the speed limit, but it isn't for them to where they are doing so for a Police purpose (& again a Police purpose is very wooly).

There isn't any 'attitude' in my post, it's just matter of fact.
I'm merely presenting the factual answer to your question. The Police can stop on the motorways where you may not where it is part of their Police duty.

That doesn't mean I'm suggesting that the Police are above the law in any way, just they are acting within it when stopped on the motorway as part of their duty.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 26th February 22:11

To use that privilege in such a way that needlessly puts members of the public at risk is the issue here though. And parking on a live motorway lane in order to catch someone speeding is, I would suggest in most peoples eyes, an abuse of that privilege that we, through our elected representatives, have given to the Police.

A slip/hard shoulder isn't a live motorway lane.
I've provided a link above for complaints where there is a belief that Police have exceeded their authority.

I am pretty sure a slip road is a live motorway lane, the motorway signs are placed at the start of the slip

The fact you are inside the Motorway regs area doesn't make it all live lanes.

[mph1977]

vonhosen said:

jm doc said:

vonhosen said:

jm doc said:

vonhosen said:

Chim said:

vonhosen said:

Where have I been arrogant or abusive towards you?
You asked a question & I gave you an answer telling you what the law is.
They are committing no offence under the legislation you quoted for stopping on motorways as part of their Police duty. The same legislation exempts them for that purpose.

No, you are merely being anal, I will point to the post above yours with regards the others. I would expand on this by stating that I hoped to enter into an interesting discussion on the topic, one where sensible discourse could be shared and view points taken. Instead I have encountered nothing other than rudeness and immaturity. In your case Vanhoosen you have provided nothing more than a prescriptive exemption statement that appears to take the stance that all and any activity carried out by the police on any given motorway, despite its legality or obvious danger to the public, is fine as they are expemt from the law.

That attitude actually disturbs me one hell of a lot more than anything else.

You keep talking about exempted behaviour as illegal behaviour. That very behaviour ceases to be illegal under the legislation for those exempted from it.
Just as it's illegal for you to exceed the speed limit, but it isn't for them to where they are doing so for a Police purpose (& again a Police purpose is very wooly).

There isn't any 'attitude' in my post, it's just matter of fact.
I'm merely presenting the factual answer to your question. The Police can stop on the motorways where you may not where it is part of their Police duty.

That doesn't mean I'm suggesting that the Police are above the law in any way, just they are acting within it when stopped on the motorway as part of their duty.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 26th February 22:11

To use that privilege in such a way that needlessly puts members of the public at risk is the issue here though. And parking on a live motorway lane in order to catch someone speeding is, I would suggest in most peoples eyes, an abuse of that privilege that we, through our elected representatives, have given to the Police.

A slip/hard shoulder isn't a live motorway lane.
I've provided a link above for complaints where there is a belief that Police have exceeded their authority.

I am pretty sure a slip road is a live motorway lane, the motorway signs are placed at the start of the slip

The fact you are inside the Motorway regs area doesn't make it all live lanes.

i'm not sure whether it's freewibble week or Lewis Caroll week ...

"“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”


it appears that 'doctor JM ' ( as he seems to be very keen in another threwad to give me health advice ) does not understand what 'live lane' means in regard to a road , or at least the meaning that the Emergency services and Highways Gency / LA Highways dept use ...

[mybrainhurts]

threadlock said:

My view: stop whining about the police

Give it a rest, Mr Predictable.

[mybrainhurts]

mph1977 said:

an awful lot of the complaints about exemptions are based in Jealousy,

There's only one thing worse than a psychologist, and that's an amateur psychologist.

mph1977 said:

combined with the illusionary superiority

That, coming from you, is a peach.

[SK425]

Chim said:

I have no intention of complaining, I came on here to discuss it in an adult kind of way foolishly thinking that it was an interesting point that may garner a debate. I have though been met by a wall of scoffing and rolling out of a generic line that the law does not apply to the police so therefore whatever they do is fine.

That's not the line. All that has been pointed out is the simple fact that some laws that apply to you and me do not, under certain circumstances, apply to the police. That's a million miles from "whatever they do is fine."

I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to be concerned if you see the police operating in a manner that you feel is dangerous. I'm not sure anyone here is in a position to debate the specifics of this case with you as we weren't there, we don't know where it was, we didn't see it. A few general points occur to me though...

I can imagine that parking a highly visible vehicle (I know you said the blue lights weren't on, but I'm assuming a fully battenburged livery?) in lane 1 of a slip road might not necessarily be that dangerous, particularly if it can be seen from the start of the slip road where approaching drivers are not going to be going very fast.

I was under the impression that parking diagonally is done to make the vehicle more visible, the theory being that diagonal is highly incongruous and so grabs the attention, and there's much less chance of not immediately realising it's stationary as might happen if the vehicle was in line with the lane.

I wonder what they were doing. If parking diagonally is about being visible, maybe it wasn't done so as to point a camera back up the road at all. Maybe they weren't checking people's speed but were there for some other reason. Indeed, on the face of it a slip road seems an odd place to do speed checks. I'd have thought slip roads wouldn't make very fertile hunting ground. If you're going to risk-assess the operation, I would think it's important to consider what the purpose of the operation is.

I would hazard guesses that a) the police put some thought into their operational procedures, including safety concerns, and b) by and large the individual police officers conducting the operations will be following the procedures, just like any professional who has procedures to follow in their job. I'll reiterate that I'm not saying "whatever they do is fine", but for it not to be fine the answer to one or other of these questions - "is the procedure appropriate?" and "was the officer following the procedure?" - must be "no". Most of the time I think the answer to both will be "yes", in some cases the answer to one or other will be "no". I don't know if this case is one of those - perhaps it is.

[mph1977]

mybrainhurts said:

mph1977 said:

an awful lot of the complaints about exemptions are based in Jealousy,

There's only one thing worse than a psychologist, and that's an amateur psychologist.

mph1977 said:

combined with the illusionary superiority

That, coming from you, is a peach.

Care to enlighten us as to why these complaints in fora such as these aren't based in Jealousy ?

I think your grip on understanding of the finer points of learning may not be as strong as you percieve it to be.