'Justice for Henry Hicks'
Discussion
I was involved in the Inquest into the death of Mischa Niering, a teenage criminal who died when he crashed his scooter into a parked SUV while fleeing the scene of a ram raid at Tiffany in Sloane Square in 2005. He was being followed by a police officer in an unmarked car. Niering's accomplice and pillion passenger gave evidence by video link from his wheelchair in prison, having been paralysed in the crash.
In that case the IPCC did not consider that any of the officers involved should be disciplined. A squad of officers had been staking out the location, tipped off that the scooter gang were coming (The gang's MO was to use a stolen SUV to ram the shop, grab the loot, then escape on hotted scooters). The gang was based in Islington where Hicks lived, and the police could catch the scooter kids but never the fences and organisers.
Niering was 19 when he died and had been a crim since he was about 13. His dad had vanished before he was 1 year old and his mum, who had him when she was 18, had gone off to be a hippy in Devon. When Niering died his 18 year old girlfriend was pregnant with their child, and so the cycle continued.
I recall the driver of the unmarked car giving evidence at the Inquest and being impressive when he said that he would have been failing in his duty to the public if he had not chased the scooter.
We had a sensible Coroner and jury, who gave a sensible narrative verdict rather than the somewhat daft one given in the Hicks case. Hicks was a died in the wool crim. It just happened that the cops hadn't managed to pot him yet.
EDIT: Dyed not died. I can haz be rubihs at spoleng.
I hope that police officers will now feel less constrained when dealing with scooter yobs.
In that case the IPCC did not consider that any of the officers involved should be disciplined. A squad of officers had been staking out the location, tipped off that the scooter gang were coming (The gang's MO was to use a stolen SUV to ram the shop, grab the loot, then escape on hotted scooters). The gang was based in Islington where Hicks lived, and the police could catch the scooter kids but never the fences and organisers.
Niering was 19 when he died and had been a crim since he was about 13. His dad had vanished before he was 1 year old and his mum, who had him when she was 18, had gone off to be a hippy in Devon. When Niering died his 18 year old girlfriend was pregnant with their child, and so the cycle continued.
I recall the driver of the unmarked car giving evidence at the Inquest and being impressive when he said that he would have been failing in his duty to the public if he had not chased the scooter.
We had a sensible Coroner and jury, who gave a sensible narrative verdict rather than the somewhat daft one given in the Hicks case. Hicks was a died in the wool crim. It just happened that the cops hadn't managed to pot him yet.
EDIT: Dyed not died. I can haz be rubihs at spoleng.
I hope that police officers will now feel less constrained when dealing with scooter yobs.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 21st October 19:05
Breadvan72 said:
justinio said:
The Daily Mail said:
The teenager, who had been described as a talented footballer
No surprises there really. But I fail to see what relevance this has on anything.
king yob".
Ian Geary said:
It seems the judgement focuses on whether it was a pursuit or not.
In my field ( accountancy) we consider substance over form. If someone is being "followed" by the police and doesn't want to get stopped by them, it seems awfully like a pursuit situation, regardless of whether or not the police have actually tried to stop him yet, or said the magic word to their boss in the control room.
I'm not much of an accountant, but I expect a spontaneous incident like this was is a little more dynamic than accountancy. In my field ( accountancy) we consider substance over form. If someone is being "followed" by the police and doesn't want to get stopped by them, it seems awfully like a pursuit situation, regardless of whether or not the police have actually tried to stop him yet, or said the magic word to their boss in the control room.
There's lots of room for interpretation as to whether something is a pursuit or not. I've known elderly drivers, on the fringes of, 'they shouldn't be driving any more', being requested to stop and not doing so. They weren't aware of the request therefore didn't have the intention to not stop (see definition) so it wasn't a pursuit.
Definition said:
A police driver is deemed to be in pursuit when a driver/motorcyclist indicates by their actions or continuance of their manner of driving/riding that:
they have no intention of stopping for the police, and
the police driver believes that the driver of the subject vehicle is aware of the requirement to stop and decides to continue behind the subject vehicle with a view to either reporting its progress or stopping it.
The margins in terms of time / distance of the Hicks case appeared to provide ample scope for the police drivers to reasonable interpret it wasn't a pursuit. they have no intention of stopping for the police, and
the police driver believes that the driver of the subject vehicle is aware of the requirement to stop and decides to continue behind the subject vehicle with a view to either reporting its progress or stopping it.
If we want to tackle the moped crime in London and elsewhere, we must accept people will suffer serious injury and death on occasions.
Breadvan72 said:
I was involved in the Inquest into the death of Mischa Niering, a teenage criminal who died when he crashed his scooter into a parked SUV while fleeing the scene of a ram raid at Tiffany in Sloane Square in 2005. He was being followed by a police officer in an unmarked car. His accomplice gave evidence by video link from his wheelchair in prison, having been paralysed in the crash.
In that case the IPCC did not consider that any of the officers involved should be disciplined. A squad of officers had been staking out the location, tipped off that the scooter gang were coming (The gang's MO was to use a stolen SUV to ram the shop, grab the loot, then escape on hotted scooters). The gang was based in Islington where Hicks lived, and the police could catch the scooter kids but never the fences and organisers.
Niering was 19 when he died and had been a crim since he was about 13. His dad had vanished before he was 1 year old and his mum, who had him when she was 18, had gone off to be a hippy in Devon. When Niering died his 18 year old girlfriend was pregnant with their child, and so the cycle continued.
I recall the driver of the unmarked car giving evidence at the Inquest and being impressive when he said that he would have been failing in his duty to the public if he had not chased the scooter.
We had a sensible Coroner and jury, who gave a sensible narrative verdict rather than the somewhat daft one given in the Hicks case. Hicks was a died in the wool crim. It just happened that the cops hadn't managed to pot him yet.
I hope that police officers will now feel less constrained when dealing with scooter yobs.
Unfortunately I think the last line is unlikely. It's probably the opposite. Three years of not knowing whether they have a job at the end, they can't get promotion or move roles etc. In that case the IPCC did not consider that any of the officers involved should be disciplined. A squad of officers had been staking out the location, tipped off that the scooter gang were coming (The gang's MO was to use a stolen SUV to ram the shop, grab the loot, then escape on hotted scooters). The gang was based in Islington where Hicks lived, and the police could catch the scooter kids but never the fences and organisers.
Niering was 19 when he died and had been a crim since he was about 13. His dad had vanished before he was 1 year old and his mum, who had him when she was 18, had gone off to be a hippy in Devon. When Niering died his 18 year old girlfriend was pregnant with their child, and so the cycle continued.
I recall the driver of the unmarked car giving evidence at the Inquest and being impressive when he said that he would have been failing in his duty to the public if he had not chased the scooter.
We had a sensible Coroner and jury, who gave a sensible narrative verdict rather than the somewhat daft one given in the Hicks case. Hicks was a died in the wool crim. It just happened that the cops hadn't managed to pot him yet.
I hope that police officers will now feel less constrained when dealing with scooter yobs.
I think it requires a change in law as ultimately policy and procedure is derived from the the Road Traffic Act, HRA etc.
IIRC you were involved in the inquest for Harry Stanley, too. Do you practice an unusually large breadth of law? It seems you do quite a few areas.
TimmyMallett said:
No one deserves that, any death is tragic but in my opinion, it's likely that the reason Henry ended up doing what he did was because his family defended him regardless of his illegal activities even at the tragic end and that validated his behaviour (probably through his life) which is why he ended going down the road he did.
100% Where has tough love gone?Phil Dicky said:
Breadvan72 said:
justinio said:
The Daily Mail said:
The teenager, who had been described as a talented footballer
No surprises there really. But I fail to see what relevance this has on anything.king yob".La Liga said:
nfortunately I think the last line is unlikely. It's probably the opposite. Three years of not knowing whether they have a job at the end, they can't get promotion or move roles etc.
I think it requires a change in law as ultimately policy and procedure is derived from the the Road Traffic Act, HRA etc.
IIRC you were involved in the inquest for Harry Stanley, too. Do you practice an unusually large breadth of law? It seems you do quite a few areas.
You may be right, but perhaps the extant guidance could be firmed up and a more robust approach taken to risk assessments and liability. It is hard, I appreciate, with aggressive claimant lawyers hovering around.I think it requires a change in law as ultimately policy and procedure is derived from the the Road Traffic Act, HRA etc.
IIRC you were involved in the inquest for Harry Stanley, too. Do you practice an unusually large breadth of law? It seems you do quite a few areas.
I do a mixture of commercial and public law, with a bit of sport and meeja. I have a short attention span so have never specialised narrowly. I don't do crime, family, or personal injury stuff but otherwise do dispute resolution in many fields. The closest I get to crime is when doing POCA stuff, prison stuff and inquests. I was in one of the Harry Stanley judicial review cases.
singlecoil said:
Breadvan72 said:
Hicks was a died in the wool crim...
I thought he died in a moped crash?
Y and I aren't that far apart on a keyboard...
Breadvan72 said:
Niering was 19 when he died and had been a crim since he was about 13. His dad had vanished before he was 1 year old and his mum, who had him when she was 18, had gone off to be a hippy in Devon. When Niering died his 18 year old girlfriend was pregnant with their child, and so the cycle continued.
Sounds like an idyllic situation for a child of mixed race.It can't be easy for a young person in that position to work out how and where he fits in to society.
When good role models are absent, bad ones will step in to take their place.
Found this article which is a tad more insightful than the usual rubbish trotted out by the mainstream press.
https://www.ft.com/content/b7d8a5d8-43e7-11dd-842e...
Breadvan72 said:
You may be right, but perhaps the extant guidance could be firmed up and a more robust approach taken to risk assessments and liability. It is hard, I appreciate, with aggressive claimant lawyers hovering around.
Pursuit policy and the law as it stands is currently under review in response to the menace of off-road motorcycles, buffoons without helmets wheely'ing past marked police vehicles , etc. etc.Contrary to popular belief helmet-less idiots can be pursued in certain circumstances ....
but that criteria is pretty strict.
Most cops will just think it isn't worth their career.
The mis-spelling of "dyed" was pure klutziness and not finger trouble. Also check out the timing - I don't hit the claret that early!
As to role models, I was delighted recently to work with a school in Lambeth that has mostly African-Caribbean pupils. I beat off Ofsted who wanted to put the school into special measures despite its very above average results (but Ofsted are having another pop on appeal). One striking thing about the school is that it has male primary teachers (men are rare in primary teaching, being vulnerable to false allegations of abuse). In particular the school has three teachers who are cool and confident black dudes in their thirties - great role models for the boys at the school.
Islington still has a white working class population, Brits and Irish who tend in my experience to be employed, Labour-voting, Arsenal-supporting and non-racist, but some of them are dynastic crims. The tawdry roadside shrine to Henry Hicks (it's behind Pentonville prison) is not far from another roadside shrine to a 29 year old local bloke who was stabbed by an associate in a 2 AM argument about drugs and/or a woman earlier this year.
As to role models, I was delighted recently to work with a school in Lambeth that has mostly African-Caribbean pupils. I beat off Ofsted who wanted to put the school into special measures despite its very above average results (but Ofsted are having another pop on appeal). One striking thing about the school is that it has male primary teachers (men are rare in primary teaching, being vulnerable to false allegations of abuse). In particular the school has three teachers who are cool and confident black dudes in their thirties - great role models for the boys at the school.
Islington still has a white working class population, Brits and Irish who tend in my experience to be employed, Labour-voting, Arsenal-supporting and non-racist, but some of them are dynastic crims. The tawdry roadside shrine to Henry Hicks (it's behind Pentonville prison) is not far from another roadside shrine to a 29 year old local bloke who was stabbed by an associate in a 2 AM argument about drugs and/or a woman earlier this year.
turbomoped said:
the news tonight was the first time I heard any detail. He sounds like local drug dealer and was
on a stolen scooter. Had a crash speeding away and apparently its the police's fault.
The massive crowds of protesters smack of local villain influence to me.
Obviously a bit biased as I hate most of these scooter scum which is hard to say being a biker.
Im sure there are some nice lads going to normal work on them as well.
Minor correction, not a stolen scooter. Just one with serial numbers removed and an undocumented engine swap. Like all decent citizens ride...on a stolen scooter. Had a crash speeding away and apparently its the police's fault.
The massive crowds of protesters smack of local villain influence to me.
Obviously a bit biased as I hate most of these scooter scum which is hard to say being a biker.
Im sure there are some nice lads going to normal work on them as well.
One striking thing about the school is that it has male primary teachers (men are rare in primary teaching, being vulnerable to false allegations of abuse.
[/quote]
I do not think the issue is anything majorly to do with being vulnerable to false allegations of abuse. There are very few situations where you would (or choose to be) alone with a pupil without another adult present.
[/quote]
I do not think the issue is anything majorly to do with being vulnerable to false allegations of abuse. There are very few situations where you would (or choose to be) alone with a pupil without another adult present.
Pica-Pica said:
100% Where has tough love gone?
I'm not even sure tough love was required. As a parent, if you validate or reinforce aberrant or negative behaviour, guess what's going to happen? It's just parents with stty values in the first place that let their kids get away with anything and think they can do no wrong. Then get all indignant every time the head teacher calls them in for an informal chat about their child's poor behaviour.I've got two kids and it's hard work but you follow through on your boundary setting. Not give up at the first hurdle.
No one is born bad.
Breadvan72 said:
[big snip]I hope that police officers will now feel less constrained when dealing with scooter yobs. [/big snip]
Correct me if I'm wrong - which I'd appreciate - but in discipline matters precedent doesn't matter.The situation is that officers cannot depend on previous decisions in discipline cases and have no idea of the likely penalty.
Derek Smith said:
Breadvan72 said:
[big snip]I hope that police officers will now feel less constrained when dealing with scooter yobs. [/big snip]
Correct me if I'm wrong - which I'd appreciate - but in discipline matters precedent doesn't matter.The situation is that officers cannot depend on previous decisions in discipline cases and have no idea of the likely penalty.
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