'Still registered as a 1.4' - Justice at last !!
Discussion
LoonR1 said:
The test for an insurer is one of reasonableness. Would a reasonable person recognise that there were modifications or not?
So an air filter, a remapping on a diesel or similar hidden part won't cause issues if it was fitted by a previous owner.
You'd hope so. However, there wasn't there a case that recently made the press, where an insurer tried to repudiate a claim for theft, because the car had a 12 V power-socket installed in the boot, and that this constituted an undeclared modification, thereby voiding the policy.So an air filter, a remapping on a diesel or similar hidden part won't cause issues if it was fitted by a previous owner.
WatchfulEye said:
LoonR1 said:
The test for an insurer is one of reasonableness. Would a reasonable person recognise that there were modifications or not?
So an air filter, a remapping on a diesel or similar hidden part won't cause issues if it was fitted by a previous owner.
You'd hope so. However, there wasn't there a case that recently made the press, where an insurer tried to repudiate a claim for theft, because the car had a 12 V power-socket installed in the boot, and that this constituted an undeclared modification, thereby voiding the policy.So an air filter, a remapping on a diesel or similar hidden part won't cause issues if it was fitted by a previous owner.
Nezquick said:
My guess is that he'll receive a slap on the wrists, a minimal fine and be sent on his way but I hope I'm wrong.
They really should thrown the book at these people.
It's like this which is for sale:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014...
It's registered as a 1.0 City E......it's about as far from a 1.0 City E as you can get. If you're going to modify something in that way and spend thousands doing it, why not go the whole hog and make it legal?
Baffling!
Love this in the detail of that Mini:They really should thrown the book at these people.
It's like this which is for sale:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014...
It's registered as a 1.0 City E......it's about as far from a 1.0 City E as you can get. If you're going to modify something in that way and spend thousands doing it, why not go the whole hog and make it legal?
Baffling!
mongo said:
GOES SO FAST THE WE ARE UNABLE TO PROVIDE A TEST DRIVE AS IT IS TOO EXTREME AND DANGEROUS FOR US TO TAKE YOU OUT IN
i.e. it's farked and we don't want you to find out until it's too late.V8forweekends said:
WatchfulEye said:
LoonR1 said:
The test for an insurer is one of reasonableness. Would a reasonable person recognise that there were modifications or not?
So an air filter, a remapping on a diesel or similar hidden part won't cause issues if it was fitted by a previous owner.
You'd hope so. However, there wasn't there a case that recently made the press, where an insurer tried to repudiate a claim for theft, because the car had a 12 V power-socket installed in the boot, and that this constituted an undeclared modification, thereby voiding the policy.So an air filter, a remapping on a diesel or similar hidden part won't cause issues if it was fitted by a previous owner.
The lines are getting blurred so lets try and get it back into focus.
Getting road tax and insurance at a cheaper rate because you haven't declared an engine swap is illegal because of a number of things however it should have its own offence.
How many of these 15 year old Corsas are running around putting out treble the HP they were designed to with none of the other mechanicals upgraded?
Brakes being the obvious one. most of these had drum brakes on the rears?! how quickly would they boil the fluid in the front trying to slow down 250 odd HP in a car that was only supposed to have a maximum of 130 ?
It should be part of the MOT where the details on file are confirmed with whats on the car and if not it should have to have an engineers report before being allowed back on the road.
Getting road tax and insurance at a cheaper rate because you haven't declared an engine swap is illegal because of a number of things however it should have its own offence.
How many of these 15 year old Corsas are running around putting out treble the HP they were designed to with none of the other mechanicals upgraded?
Brakes being the obvious one. most of these had drum brakes on the rears?! how quickly would they boil the fluid in the front trying to slow down 250 odd HP in a car that was only supposed to have a maximum of 130 ?
It should be part of the MOT where the details on file are confirmed with whats on the car and if not it should have to have an engineers report before being allowed back on the road.
Pixelpeep7r said:
The lines are getting blurred so lets try and get it back into focus.
Getting road tax and insurance at a cheaper rate because you haven't declared an engine swap is illegal because of a number of things however it should have its own offence.
How many of these 15 year old Corsas are running around putting out treble the HP they were designed to with none of the other mechanicals upgraded?
Brakes being the obvious one. most of these had drum brakes on the rears?! how quickly would they boil the fluid in the front trying to slow down 250 odd HP in a car that was only supposed to have a maximum of 130 ?
It should be part of the MOT where the details on file are confirmed with whats on the car and if not it should have to have an engineers report before being allowed back on the road.
Why would a car with 250hp require more powerful brakes to stop then a car with 130hp? Unless of course you kept your foot to the floor on the accelerator when braking! Or are you suggesting that a car with 250hp will always be stopping from a higher speed than a car with 250hp?Getting road tax and insurance at a cheaper rate because you haven't declared an engine swap is illegal because of a number of things however it should have its own offence.
How many of these 15 year old Corsas are running around putting out treble the HP they were designed to with none of the other mechanicals upgraded?
Brakes being the obvious one. most of these had drum brakes on the rears?! how quickly would they boil the fluid in the front trying to slow down 250 odd HP in a car that was only supposed to have a maximum of 130 ?
It should be part of the MOT where the details on file are confirmed with whats on the car and if not it should have to have an engineers report before being allowed back on the road.
rscott said:
The 12v socket was one of the mods, the others which was actually related to the repudiation attempt were the massive religious stickers on the vicar's car. - http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-... .
They were asking for clarification and advising that avoiding the policy was the ultimate potential consequencePixelpeep7r said:
Reductio ad absurdum seems to feature heavily in your retorts i have noticed.
taking REASONABLE steps to ensure your car is legal, roadworthy and as advertised i would have thought is the norm rather than the exception that is you.
By paying a professional and qualified engineer to inspect the car i have taken steps to ensure everything is as it should be. By using your 'not giving a s
t' buying style then you are opening yourself up to all kinds of risks.
However If you are fine with that then i am too because i don't really give a fk what consciences you suffer as a result.
Not really, relax you will live longer. I was picking up a nuance.taking REASONABLE steps to ensure your car is legal, roadworthy and as advertised i would have thought is the norm rather than the exception that is you.
By paying a professional and qualified engineer to inspect the car i have taken steps to ensure everything is as it should be. By using your 'not giving a s
t' buying style then you are opening yourself up to all kinds of risks.However If you are fine with that then i am too because i don't really give a f
k what consciences you suffer as a result.I buy a used car from a main manufacturer dealer that appears unmodified, I can sleep easy. I don't need to pay for a professional and qualified engineer to inspect it and am not opening myself up to lots of insurance risks. If the car has been mapped with out my or the dealers knowledge, I am pretty comfortable that I remain insured, even though it is "modified".
I do care, but I clearly don;t get as worked up as you by random strangers on a forum.
Rude-boy said:
I have no idea if it is watertight, I doubt it but expect if would be highly persuasive, but I make a point of confirming all modifications I am aware of and also stating that I purchased the car secondhand and therefore there made possibly be others I am unaware of. For example both 968's have MO30 ARB's rather than the boggo ones. No way in hell I would have known that as I pay others to crawl under my cars for me and only knew because I saw them in invoices.
Reasonable is the key word. However you seem to know things that you say you don't! If you know you should declare. If you don't knkw and it wouldn't be reasonable to know then you're fine. . LucreLout said:
I generally agree with that, but considering my neighbour who has a blob eye impreza wrx.... How is he supposed to know what is standard and what is not? He was driving around in a 1.6 focus until his wife left him (no, this really is my neighbour!) so its not unreasonable for him to find the car quick.
I like cars. Always have. But I have no clue if the cannon looking exhaust is standard of if it should have had a twin barrel backbox. So, how's he supposed to know? Or would an insurer make allowances for that type of car and a middle aged man insuring it?
I bet if you looked at it for 5 minutes you'd come up with sufficient stuff to make you have a suspicion that its modified. A trip to a local mechanic would help too if uncertain and wanted to check over the visible stuff. I like cars. Always have. But I have no clue if the cannon looking exhaust is standard of if it should have had a twin barrel backbox. So, how's he supposed to know? Or would an insurer make allowances for that type of car and a middle aged man insuring it?
I am completely inept with mechanical stuff but even I can spot a dodgy exhaust (noise), wheels (excessively sized alloys or those God awful stretch things), wing mirrors, spoilers etc. without too much effort
Glosphil said:
Why would a car with 250hp require more powerful brakes to stop then a car with 130hp? Unless of course you kept your foot to the floor on the accelerator when braking! Or are you suggesting that a car with 250hp will always be stopping from a higher speed than a car with 250hp?
Not sure if seriousIn that case why stop at 250hp, the next time someone needs brakes on their nissan gtr they should be pointed towards the equivalent micra parts
TankRizzo said:
Nezquick said:
My guess is that he'll receive a slap on the wrists, a minimal fine and be sent on his way but I hope I'm wrong.
They really should thrown the book at these people.
It's like this which is for sale:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014...
It's registered as a 1.0 City E......it's about as far from a 1.0 City E as you can get. If you're going to modify something in that way and spend thousands doing it, why not go the whole hog and make it legal?
Baffling!
Love this in the detail of that Mini:They really should thrown the book at these people.
It's like this which is for sale:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2014...
It's registered as a 1.0 City E......it's about as far from a 1.0 City E as you can get. If you're going to modify something in that way and spend thousands doing it, why not go the whole hog and make it legal?
Baffling!
mongo said:
GOES SO FAST THE WE ARE UNABLE TO PROVIDE A TEST DRIVE AS IT IS TOO EXTREME AND DANGEROUS FOR US TO TAKE YOU OUT IN
i.e. it's farked and we don't want you to find out until it's too late.I'm going to email the dealer saying I have a massive pair. A lot.
LucreLout said:
AndrewEH1 said:
When did you start driving?
I started in 2008, insurance for an basic car was +£3,500 for a 18 year old male.
If anything the roads have got safer in the last +50 years, there is no reason why it should be so high for new drivers.
Edit: I'm not supporting undeclared mods though!
I started driving over 20 years ago and insurance cost me £500.00 which is very roughly the equivalent of £900 now.I started in 2008, insurance for an basic car was +£3,500 for a 18 year old male.
If anything the roads have got safer in the last +50 years, there is no reason why it should be so high for new drivers.
Edit: I'm not supporting undeclared mods though!
The key difference being lack of ambulance chasers coining it in after an accident, no mobile phones to get distracted by, and the roads being a lot quieter.
Unfortunately, insurance for kids is expensive due to the quantity and severity of the accidents they have, so if they can't afford it, well, the bus is over there ----->
My son is 16 so I've started looking at insurance quotes for him. A basic small hatchback is around the £1500 mark. Given that insurance payputs dwarf what they would have been in my day, that seems very reasonable.
98elise said:
About the same for me.
My son is 16 so I've started looking at insurance quotes for him. A basic small hatchback is around the £1500 mark. Given that insurance payputs dwarf what they would have been in my day, that seems very reasonable.
It's £1500 whilst he's a learner. It will be a different story when he passes,mas that's when the boy racer testosterone kicks in. My son is 16 so I've started looking at insurance quotes for him. A basic small hatchback is around the £1500 mark. Given that insurance payputs dwarf what they would have been in my day, that seems very reasonable.
To give an idea of how it now works vs how it used to work. I wrote off three cars in my first 18 months driving. The bigger of the three crashes was a roll off the road into a farmers filed, followed by us all legging it and having a right laugh about it in the pub. My insurance paid about for a new fence for him (about £200) and I got to scrap my TPF&T covered car and that was it.
Nowadays there would be 3 whiplash claims at £1700 each, associated medical bills at £300 per claimant, sols fees of £750 each (was over £1500 until LASPO), a new fence, loss of amenity in the field whilst resolved and a few other incidentals, probably bringing the claim to upwards of £10000 without much effort. Now think how that would multiply if another car was innocently involved and they took a hire car as well.
barker22 said:
Glosphil said:
Why would a car with 250hp require more powerful brakes to stop then a car with 130hp? Unless of course you kept your foot to the floor on the accelerator when braking! Or are you suggesting that a car with 250hp will always be stopping from a higher speed than a car with 250hp?
Not sure if seriousIn that case why stop at 250hp, the next time someone needs brakes on their nissan gtr they should be pointed towards the equivalent micra parts
The reason for bigger brakes is a car with more BHP is possibly going to be driven faster.
98elise said:
barker22 said:
Glosphil said:
Why would a car with 250hp require more powerful brakes to stop then a car with 130hp? Unless of course you kept your foot to the floor on the accelerator when braking! Or are you suggesting that a car with 250hp will always be stopping from a higher speed than a car with 250hp?
Not sure if seriousIn that case why stop at 250hp, the next time someone needs brakes on their nissan gtr they should be pointed towards the equivalent micra parts
The reason for bigger brakes is a car with more BHP is possibly going to be driven faster.
Not only drive faster but perhaps multiple stops from higher speeds.
The brakes on a 1.2 corsa will not be able to cope with multiple stops from higher speed, which is exactly the reason the driver would have put the bigger engine in.... for more speed.
You also mentioned if the cars are the same weight.... They won't be, Which also adds further stress to the braking system and suspension components that are not designed for that type of usage.
LoonR1 said:
I bet if you looked at it for 5 minutes you'd come up with sufficient stuff to make you have a suspicion that its modified. A trip to a local mechanic would help too if uncertain and wanted to check over the visible stuff.
I am completely inept with mechanical stuff but even I can spot a dodgy exhaust (noise), wheels (excessively sized alloys or those God awful stretch things), wing mirrors, spoilers etc. without too much effort
My car? Sure. But I specifically picked my neighbours car because I'm not sure I've seen an unmodified one. I am completely inept with mechanical stuff but even I can spot a dodgy exhaust (noise), wheels (excessively sized alloys or those God awful stretch things), wing mirrors, spoilers etc. without too much effort
His suspension looks about right, the wheels aren't massive, but other than limited editions I've not seen two of these with the same wheels. It comes with wings n stuff from the factory. Proper charvers car, as we used to say back home. If I don't know it's nodded, I'm not sure how he would.
The mechanics inspection is a good idea though. I'll bear that in mind for when my midlife crisis arrives and I need an Evo
Thanks for the replies all. No mods on my cars though, as I just buy a quicker one - only advantage of being middle ages is insurance costs less than breakfast.
LucreLout said:
My car? Sure. But I specifically picked my neighbours car because I'm not sure I've seen an unmodified one.
His suspension looks about right, the wheels aren't massive, but other than limited editions I've not seen two of these with the same wheels. It comes with wings n stuff from the factory. Proper charvers car, as we used to say back home. If I don't know it's nodded, I'm not sure how he would.
The mechanics inspection is a good idea though. I'll bear that in mind for when my midlife crisis arrives and I need an Evo
Thanks for the replies all. No mods on my cars though, as I just buy a quicker one - only advantage of being middle ages is insurance costs less than breakfast.
Thing is that if you were buying his car then you'd know more about it. It doesn't float your boat, so you've no interest in finding out if there are modifications. His suspension looks about right, the wheels aren't massive, but other than limited editions I've not seen two of these with the same wheels. It comes with wings n stuff from the factory. Proper charvers car, as we used to say back home. If I don't know it's nodded, I'm not sure how he would.
The mechanics inspection is a good idea though. I'll bear that in mind for when my midlife crisis arrives and I need an Evo
Thanks for the replies all. No mods on my cars though, as I just buy a quicker one - only advantage of being middle ages is insurance costs less than breakfast.
Don't get an Evo. I bought a new one in 2011 as one of the last ones and it was s
t. Lasted two months before I got rid of it. I think Loon has made a fair point with regards to insurance - but when I posted what I did, and someone else made a simple point I wasn't talking about insurance in it's current form. There is a world of difference between an insurance company and a civil claim - and a criminal prosecution. The idea of what is reasonable is up for discussion a lot more when you are talking about "behond all reasonable doubt" - is it really beyond reasonable doubt that an unqualified person would not know if a car had at some point been lowered?
And as I've said - until their are fast and clear rules about what is and isn't a modification I don't like this at all. My definition of a modification is something that improves a car, makes it faster or makes it look more to your taste. And as I've said is a new set of wiper blades a modification? Is a new alternator a modification? Even if you fit the same parts because they are at a different age to the rest of the system it will change the way they work... Nearly every car on the road older than 5 years old will be "modified" - where is the datebase of exactly what a car came with as standard? How do I know what tyres came with the car??? And heaven forbid - what if a part is discontinued? At that point is my car forever a modified car?
Again - it's slightly pedantic, but if anyone doesn't think a solicitor is going to make those sorts of points then they havn't been around criminal solicitors. I'd say the right and reasonable thing to do would be to draft proper legislation, rather than trying to bodge old legislation to fit. However I'm not convinced it's a big enough problem to warrant it. So in summary - I think the police should worry about more pressing matters.
And as I've said - until their are fast and clear rules about what is and isn't a modification I don't like this at all. My definition of a modification is something that improves a car, makes it faster or makes it look more to your taste. And as I've said is a new set of wiper blades a modification? Is a new alternator a modification? Even if you fit the same parts because they are at a different age to the rest of the system it will change the way they work... Nearly every car on the road older than 5 years old will be "modified" - where is the datebase of exactly what a car came with as standard? How do I know what tyres came with the car??? And heaven forbid - what if a part is discontinued? At that point is my car forever a modified car?
Again - it's slightly pedantic, but if anyone doesn't think a solicitor is going to make those sorts of points then they havn't been around criminal solicitors. I'd say the right and reasonable thing to do would be to draft proper legislation, rather than trying to bodge old legislation to fit. However I'm not convinced it's a big enough problem to warrant it. So in summary - I think the police should worry about more pressing matters.
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