Front wheel came off hub after recent tyre change

Front wheel came off hub after recent tyre change

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anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
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Of the 2 receipts I've seen from my car and my mums, both said the car should be taken back to the garage to check they're still tight. For the average driver, it should not be down to them to check something the garage should and has been paid to get right

MGJohn

10,203 posts

182 months

Tuesday 17th March 2015
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Mave said:
Why would the wheel move due to a bump? The clamping of the bolts should be sufficient to hold the joint together, the wheel shouldn't be able to move around the clearances of the spigot.
Why would the nuts loosen ? It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the wheel was not seated correctly fully home on the hub. In my experience, some wheels are difficult to locate centrally on the hub and give a false impression of being fully home when they are not. The Nuts even if torqued correctly will soon loosen when and if the wheel is jolted by some rougher areas of road surface and then all nuts are loose. I had this happen to me many years ago but, there was ample warning with an increasing vagueness in the steering and odd vibration when braking even gently. Had I carried on no doubt those nuts would work loose and fall away. Maybe some drivers would not sense something is wrong and drive on.

Since then whenever I or anyone works on my cars involving wheels, I ALWAYS double check those wheel nuts often in the workshop when collecting the car. No one has ever objected. Indeed quite the opposite. I also always ask them NOT to use power guns on the Wheel Nuts either for undoing or tightening. Again because experience has shown those guns often damage the flats or stainless steel cappings making removal with hand tools difficult or close to impossible. Something you do not want to discover up on the moors on a dark rainy night in your Sunday best after a wedding reception. Been there done that and never want a repeat.

Moral : Check your nuts ... wink

SpeedMattersNot

4,506 posts

195 months

Wednesday 18th March 2015
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It is of course possible that wheels can come lose, but in virtually every case it will be due to negligence of the technician (or amateur who has a Halfords discount card).

Regarding the wheels being central on the hubs, especially with after-market rims, if the torquing procedure is correctly followed then by applying a small torque to all nuts/bolts in opposing order. Then, finally torquing up the wheels to manufactures specification the wheel should naturally centralise because of the taper on each nut/bolt and stud-well. The central part of the hub is not responsible for making the wheel concentric to the hub/drum - the correct torquing procedure is.

The 'get out of jail free card' these garages use is a shame. This is specific to light vehicles though. HGV's and Buses are different and wheel bolt/nut creep can occur hence the universal wheel bolt markers.

Jodyone

243 posts

119 months

Wednesday 18th March 2015
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The advocation to check wheelnuts after xx time sounds reasonable enough, but I'm not sure how you're supposed to do it. What does "check" mean? If any are actually loose, such that you could undo them with your fingers, then you have a quandary: the professional wheel fitter couldn't attach them securely enough that they didn't loosen within a few days, so what chance do you have? Are you now doomed to checking your car's wheelnuts daily forever?!

Moreover, tightening fastenings to the prescribed torque is not all that simple. It assumes appropriate lubrication on mating surfaces - copaslip, grease, whatever- and that the torque wrench is itself used for final tightening. After which, I don't know how to confirm that torque value without backing off the fastening and tightening it again. Which, if you don't trust that the torque setting is final, kicks off an endless cycle of mistrust, as you're only ever repeating yourself, not finalising an operation. Alternatively, you keep tightening the wheel bolts a bit more, eventually over tightening them, causing strain failure, etc.

tl;dr: I though the whole point of torque values was to give fitters a setting which was final. I don't see how they make any sense otherwise.

jith

2,752 posts

214 months

Thursday 19th March 2015
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I have over 40 years in the trade. In that time you could say I've handled a lot of nuts, but it might give you the wrong idea!

I could quote you many examples of wheel nuts coming loose apparently for no reason. Worst example recently was a seriously nice old Audi 100 Quattro in for lots of work as it had been off the road for quite some time. We completed the work and I road tested the car in the afternoon and parked it adjacent to the workshop entrance.

The customer came in that night to pick it up and I commented on the fact that it was fitted with cross spoke alloy wheels from a BMW and the spigot diameter of the wheel was too large for the Audi hub and this was causing some vibration similar to wheel imbalance. He wasn't too bothered about this as he intended getting an original set of Quattro wheels for the car.

He left with the car and we got a phone call just 5 minutes later to say he was stuck on the slip road to the bypass; less than a mile from the workshop. The nearside front wheel was falling off!

I shot up there in my car and discovered only 2 nuts left on the wheel and both of these on the last few threads. I jacked the car up and fitted some nuts I had brought from the workshop, and then checked all 4 wheels and torqued all the nuts as normal.

It stands to reason that if I had road tested the car with no problems and it had not moved until he drove it away we have a real mystery on our hands. This wasn't just loose, but almost falling off in the space of less than a mile! Had it came off at speed there would undoubtedly have been a disaster and all the implications of this kind of incident, i.e. who is to blame.

The customer was fine about this because it ended ok and the conclusion was that someone was trying to steal the wheels when the car was parked outside, or it was the spigot problem that caused some unusual vibration that loosened the nuts. Personally I haven't a clue what caused this, but favour the idea of kids being malicious and stupid. The wheel that was slackened was out of sight of the workshop enabling someone to work undetected.

We had the car back in after that for a new clutch and I fitted a set of spigot spacers and it completely cured the vibration problem. The whole issue here is that these situations are never cut and dried, and nobody would wish this to happen or leaves the nuts loose deliberately. Jumping to conclusions is the worst possible behaviour in this situation.

J

With these feet

5,728 posts

214 months

Thursday 19th March 2015
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Workshop neighbour had a Mercedes Vito 7 seater. He had spare sets of MB alloys and ran the tidier of the pair on the car. For weeks he was trying to find the cause of a vibration, usually under braking, changing driveshafts and balancing the wheels repeatedly. Turns out the wheels had a different hub size and the wheel was moving a fraction off centre, causing the vibration. If left no doubt it would loosen the wheel.

This has happened to me where I fitted a set of alloys temporarily on an old civic.
I drove about 50 miles before noticing a slight knock and vibration. I checked when I stopped at a car park and one wheel was finger tight. Again it was down to the wheel centre being a different size, spacers were bought for £12 and they were fine.

Hol

8,360 posts

199 months

Thursday 19th March 2015
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Wheel studs stretch over time, especially if the car has been abused by a former owner with a large wheel wrench.


That may come a surprise to some people, but such eureka moments are why you subscribed to a car forum, where some nice people will explain to you how things work.


You don't have to listen to the advice or explanations (based on practical experience) that is given if you don't want to, but don't further belittle yourselves by then arguing - simply because what they told you, was not what you had assumed it would be.






BertBert

18,954 posts

210 months

Thursday 19th March 2015
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So how many do that then?

Mr2Mike

20,143 posts

254 months

Thursday 19th March 2015
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Hol said:
Wheel studs stretch over time, especially if the car has been abused by a former owner with a large wheel wrench.
Studs only stretch if torqued past their yield point, they don't stretch over time.

With these feet

5,728 posts

214 months

Thursday 19th March 2015
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Mr2Mike said:
Studs only stretch if torqued past their yield point, they don't stretch over time.
Had a Renault Scenic that I changed a wheel on.
3 normal studs and 1 locking. I was tightening with the wheel wrench but 1 just didn't feel right. Every time you went to nip it up, it creaked but never felt it was as tight as the others. I removed it and compared it with one of the bolts replaced with a locking one.
The bolt was about 5mm longer and was waisted where it had began to stretch. All the others were fine.

wildcat45

8,056 posts

188 months

Thursday 19th March 2015
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My local tyre Indy has the 'check 'em' notice and on the invoice. The bloke also tells you this when handing you the keys. He also says bring it back any time you are passing and well tighten them for you.

Last tyres I got were from a mobile bloke. I checked the wheels after a few miles and they all needed tightening. Quite sobering when I found I could get a quarter turn out of a few of the nuts.

Jodyone

243 posts

119 months

Thursday 19th March 2015
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wildcat45 said:
My local tyre Indy has the 'check 'em' notice and on the invoice. The bloke also tells you this when handing you the keys. He also says bring it back any time you are passing and well tighten them for you.

Last tyres I got were from a mobile bloke. I checked the wheels after a few miles and they all needed tightening. Quite sobering when I found I could get a quarter turn out of a few of the nuts.
You can get more than a quarter turn more out of a properly torqued wheel nut. Most specs are around 100NM, which doesn't feel all that tight with a spanner longer than a foot or so. Possibly, you actually overtightened them a bit without realising.


Edited by Jodyone on Thursday 19th March 18:33

Hol

8,360 posts

199 months

Friday 20th March 2015
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Mr2Mike said:
Hol said:
Wheel studs stretch over time, especially if the car has been abused by a former owner with a large wheel wrench.
Studs only stretch if torqued past their yield point, they don't stretch over time.
They do indeed.especially if the car has been abused by a former owner with a large wheel wrench.

Which would have happened in the past. Over time. By those previous owners.