DWP chasing a paid debt (20 yrs old)...

[Jim1556]

Hi all, just after some clarification on my rights and such with a situation that's reared it's head recently...

In the mid 90s, I was in receipt of Job Seekers Allowance (for approx 2-2.5 years), during this time I was somehow overpaid to the tune of £479.32.

I joined the British Army in 97 and a few years later, around 2000-2001, I was lucky enough for the system to ping me and chase the debt. I was unaware of the overpayment at the time and disputed it, after receiving proof (and not wanting to jeapardise my future military career), I paid it back in instalments - in full!

I remember the above quite clearly apart from exact dates!

In 2007 (according to them) I was contacted again which I think I ignored (can't remember this contact, I was in Afghanistan half the year).

After I left in 2012 (I assume due to a change in PAYE details), again I was contacted and actually tried to get to the bottom of this, but, my bank (as with most others) don't keep records over 6 years old. Neither do I...

Nothing heard.

The other week, I received another letter 'DO NOT IGNORE' etc

Now, I'm determined to sort this one way or the other.

I know I paid this over 10 years ago!

The DWP aren't interested, even though they've had computer system changes since the time the debt was paid.

Their system says I owe it, therefore they say I owe it. I'm saying I've paid it, neither can prove otherwise!

I could pay it now if I wanted, but more than the amount is the principle. I have an interview with the CAB in April to see if they can help.

I've read due to it being Statute Barred (Consumer Action Group), that they can't instruct a debt collection agency or add costs to it, can't affect my credit file, and definitely can't deduct from earnings. It can only be recovered from any future benefits (including pension)...

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance...

[Motorrad]

Well fk nothing to add other than thanks for serving our country and political masters rather than being some leach.

Also thanks for paying your 'debt' that didn't exist in the first place and thanks for paying it again when it comes pension time.

You couldn't make this st up.

Good luck getting some sort of justice. Nothing constructive to add but this sort of st pisses me off.

[Jim1556]

Thanks!

I only mentioned it, as it (sort of) backs up my 'not wanting to jeapardise my future military career' statement, I was literally petrified in case my unit found out (back then, being in debt was a chargeable offence)...

[aw51 121565]

Jim1556 said:

...

I've read due to it being Statute Barred (Consumer Action Group), that they can't instruct a debt collection agency or add costs to it, can't affect my credit file, and definitely can't deduct from earnings. It can only be recovered from any future benefits (including pension)...

Any ideas?

First thing is to deny the alleged debt at every opportunity - once you acknowledge the debt (I know this is badly phrased) then the six year period restarts before the alleged debt becomes statute-barred again .

I was overpaid tax credits to the tune of a few grand over 7 months back in 2003; I was calling HMRC weekly for several months at that time before they stopped paying, after a significant change in circumstances. They started chasing me in 2008. I have no evidence that I was ringing them weekly (who would after 5 years, as I rang from work during my lunch breaks with my now ex-employer's consent?).

I fended them off until the alleged debt was statute-barred (not difficult, HMRC were amateurs back then and I suspect they're no better now ), but they have tried to pursue this through debt collectors twice now (the 'cycle' of debt collection as described in the next sentence lasts about 9 months).

I've just received "the letter" from HMRC which has started the 'cycle' of increasingly threatening letters from debt collection agencies twice before (letters saying "you must pay this now" followed by "you really must pay this or we will take you to court" in effect, then they stop after the fifth or sixth letter).

"Ignore" is the best policy for me - assuming that it is a debt collecting agency pursuing you? You could always deny any debt and tell them to refer the matter back to their client - but I wouldn't, I'd just leave it.

If you're dealing with HMRC, just assert that any alleged debt, which is denied by you in any case, is statute-barred and was paid on a repayment plan in instalments whenever it was.

As an aside, OP, do you have internet banking? That may let you go back far enough to confirm that it was paid? Being able to evidence this would be helpful - but this is the real world and you probably won't manage to evidence paying it off. Even if you can't evidence payment, HMRC cannot pursue this through a court because it is - as you realise - statute-barred . (You're right about them being able to only deduct alleged overpayments from future benefits, as well...)

PS HMRC are incompetent and not fit for purpose.

[Jim1556]

aw51 121565 said:

First thing is to deny the alleged debt at every opportunity - once you acknowledge the debt (I know this is badly phrased) then the six year period restarts before the alleged debt becomes statute-barred again .

Jim1556 said:

I acknowledged the debt after receiving proof originally, then paid it.

If you're dealing with HMRC, just assert that any alleged debt, which is denied by you in any case, is statute-barred and was paid on a repayment plan in instalments whenever it was.

Jim1556 said:

It's the Department for Work & Pensions. I've told them it was paid many, many, times.

As an aside, OP, do you have internet banking? That may let you go back far enough to confirm that it was paid? Being able to evidence this would be helpful - but this is the real world and you probably won't manage to evidence paying it off. Even if you can't evidence payment, HMRC cannot pursue this through a court because it is - as you realise - statute-barred . (You're right about them being able to only deduct alleged overpayments from future benefits, as well...)

Jim1556 said:

I do have internet banking, it does not go back anywhere near far enough. If only it did...

PS HMRC are incompetent and not fit for purpose.

Jim1556 said:

I know, my friend's small business constantly has issues due to their ineptness.

Worst case scenario, IF this carries on, I'll ignore everything, and wait til they try and take it out of my pension in 30yrs by which time I won't give a flying puck!

[aw51 121565]

[krisdelta]

Would do you no harm to speak to your MP - if the debt is cleared, there is no way you should consider paying again (again).

[Red Devil]

Jim1556 said:

Worst case scenario, IF this carries on, I'll ignore everything, and wait til they try and take it out of my pension in 30yrs by which time I won't give a flying puck!

Don't assume you will be able to wait that long. DWP are a law unto themselves and WILL deduct it from any other benefit you might claim/be entitled to between now and your state pension date. IDS has commanded DWP to recover any and all monies it possibly can by whatever means necessary as part of his blitz on the welfare budget. That is why you are being hounded so long after the event. The fact that their records may be deficient (re you having paid it back) is beside the point.

Of course if we have a change of government in May all bets are off.

[Jim1556]

I'd not considered the MP route, I'll see what the CAB says first.

I've not had any benefits since 97, I've paid into the system since and before I changed jobs last year I was paying more than double what they're chasing me for every month just in tax so it pisses me right off!

Unless anything drastic happens, I shouldn't need help from the system ever. Hopefully by then, this will be sorted but I don't expect it...

[mbcx4jrh]

I got one of these last week. Claimed I owed them £5.
Since I have had anything from DWP for 20 years I gave them a ring and was surprised to find it was a specific overpayment from 20 years ago.
It was beliveable tha ti did owe it so I just paid.. however I did consider just saying it was 20 years ago, statute barred etc...

[Sheepshanks]

krisdelta said:

Would do you no harm to speak to your MP - if the debt is cleared, there is no way you should consider paying again (again).

That would have been my suggestion too, except that they're likely to have other things on their mind at the moment.

Still worth a try though, could be they'll be keener to help. My missus used to be a civil servant and a enquiry generated by an MP does get a lot of attention at it comes in very high up in the Department.

[TVR1]

mbcx4jrh said:

I got one of these last week. Claimed I owed them £5.
Since I have had anything from DWP for 20 years I gave them a ring and was surprised to find it was a specific overpayment from 20 years ago.
It was beliveable tha ti did owe it so I just paid.. however I did consider just saying it was 20 years ago, statute barred etc...

Crown debts can be statute barred i.e. the creditor can not sue you for recovery but they can still collect in other ways- pensions ,unemployment/housing benefit/income tax etc.

[eps]

I know it's a long time ago but are you able to source any receipts or statements which might prove that you did indeed pay the monies owed?

Quite often with those systems it is a bit of a case that then right hand and left hand don't speak to each other, but more often than not if you have paid some money, against a code, UTR (Unique Taxpayer Reference) or similar that they can trace it.

Even if you can remember the date or dates of the payments and/or amounts involved may well help.

If they can see the overpayments then they should be able to track or trace the payments you made.

[All that jazz]

I thought I'd read somewhere that debts to the government cannot be statute barred?

[plasticpig]

All that jazz said:

I thought I'd read somewhere that debts to the government cannot be statute barred?

IIRC That is true for taxes but not for benefit over payments.

[DervVW]

Im not sure you can escape it.
My wife got written to saying that she owed less than £100 for a crisis loan about 14 years ago.
She wrote back and called back saying she knew nothing, as she doesnt remember ever needing any such loan or asking for one.
They just sent a couple of letters basically saying she owed it, what was she going to do, then they just contacted her employer and took at source.
Not a great sum, but like the terminator there was no reasoning, no bargaining, it absolutely would not stop until it got its target.

[Rude-boy]

DervVW said:

Im not sure you can escape it.
My wife got written to saying that she owed less than £100 for a crisis loan about 14 years ago.
She wrote back and called back saying she knew nothing, as she doesnt remember ever needing any such loan or asking for one.
They just sent a couple of letters basically saying she owed it, what was she going to do, then they just contacted her employer and took at source.
Not a great sum, but like the terminator there was no reasoning, no bargaining, it absolutely would not stop until it got its target.

This.

The only way to 'win' with HMRC is to beat them at their own paper game and keep every item of remote importance you get from them in writing. 10 years ago the lady I was with had children and we got WFTC. I still have all 'my' pepers from that, just awaiting the day in 10 years time when they write to me about it...

[Vaud]

Red Devil said:

Don't assume you will be able to wait that long. DWP are a law unto themselves and WILL deduct it from any other benefit you might claim/be entitled to between now and your state pension date. IDS has commanded DWP to recover any and all monies it possibly can by whatever means necessary as part of his blitz on the welfare budget. That is why you are being hounded so long after the event. The fact that their records may be deficient (re you having paid it back) is beside the point.

Of course if we have a change of government in May all bets are off.

And yet they continually fail to go aggressively after student loans made to EU students who default... and refuse to outsource recovery... (apparently)

[Jim1556]

As I said, it's the DWP, NOT HMRC - I know it's Statute Barred (different from the 6 yr Statute of Limitations) but as I read on CAG website, they can't get anything from me unless I claim for something. It's this I want clarifying. Dealing with the DWP on th phone is like trying to get blood from a stone, they're not interested and just want the amount their system says I owe, repaid...

Not sure they could deduct at source - I now work for a company in Europe.

I guess we'll see, cos they're not getting another penny of mine!

[Sheepshanks]

Rude-boy said:

DervVW said:

Im not sure you can escape it.
My wife got written to saying that she owed less than £100 for a crisis loan about 14 years ago.
She wrote back and called back saying she knew nothing, as she doesnt remember ever needing any such loan or asking for one.
They just sent a couple of letters basically saying she owed it, what was she going to do, then they just contacted her employer and took at source.
Not a great sum, but like the terminator there was no reasoning, no bargaining, it absolutely would not stop until it got its target.

This.

The only way to 'win' with HMRC...

The above is DWP not HMRC. It can still be appealed even once the money has been taken and then it will be repaid if the appeal is successful.

To be honest I'd never heard of them going back so far and wondered if it was some sort of end of Parliament purge, but Googling it there are plenty of examples going back years.