How is this dangerous driving?

[gareth_r]

First things first...
I have searched, but I didn't find an existing thread, so apologies if this is a repost.
Can we skip all the remarks about not having all the facts, the report being in the Daily Mail, the vehicle being a "drift car", and the driver being a hipster, please?
I'm just asking for information from people who know more about the subject than I do.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/d...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2987698/Ca...

I can see the illegality of no horn, excessive movement in the steering column, the bald tyres, and, possibly, the ("stretched") tyre fitment, but is it actually illegal to have non-working ABS, no door cards, a quick-release steering wheel, and some dash wires showing?

I could understand the police going for using a vehicle in a dangerous condition rather than the individual offences.

However, I thought that "dangerous driving" referred to the manner of driving. According to the defendant's solicitor “There’s no suggestion he was stopped for any poor driving.”.

How did vehicle faults result in a dangerous driving conviction?

[Dave Hedgehog]

it just goes to show how utterly feeble and lenient our legal system is, stretched tyres on their own should be an automatic ban and car crushed just for being a class one bell end


they could chuck another couple of years in for the hipster beard as well

[jimmy156]

gareth_r said:

First things first...
I have searched, but I didn't find an existing thread, so apologies if this is a repost.
Can we skip all the remarks about not having all the facts, the report being in the Daily Mail, the vehicle being a "drift car", and the driver being a hipster, please?
I'm just asking for information from people who know more about the subject than I do.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/d...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2987698/Ca...

I can see the illegality of no horn, excessive movement in the steering column, the bald tyres, and, possibly, the ("stretched") tyre fitment, but is it actually illegal to have non-working ABS, no door cards, a quick-release steering wheel, and some dash wires showing?

I could understand the police going for using a vehicle in a dangerous condition rather than the individual offences.

However, I thought that "dangerous driving" referred to the manner of driving. According to the defendant's solicitor “There’s no suggestion he was stopped for any poor driving.”.

How did vehicle faults result in a dangerous driving conviction?

Being as he pleaded guilty, i would say the "not having all the facts bit" is the key.

[gareth_r]

Brilliant! First two posts and nothing added to what I'd already said. Thanks for that.

[Dr Jekyll]

Driving a vehicle in a dangerous condition constitutes dangerous driving.

Specifically:

...if it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving the vehicle in its current state (for the purpose of the determination of which regard may be had to anything attached to or carried on or in it, and to the manner in which it is attached or carried) would be dangerous.

[Jonsv8]

gareth_r said:

Brilliant! First two posts and nothing added to what I'd already said. Thanks for that.

Be a short thread then.

It is dangerous driving because he was prosecuted for that and he pleaded guilty. The rest doesn't matter in the light of incomplete facts as I doubt they printed a full transcript of the case.

[Zod]

The car was dangerous to drive on the road, so by driving it he was guilty of dangerous driving. Not complicated.

[jimmy156]

gareth_r said:

Brilliant! First two posts and nothing added to what I'd already said. Thanks for that.

Any time .

[Aretnap]

Dr Jekyll said:

Driving a vehicle in a dangerous condition constitutes dangerous driving.

Specifically:

...if it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving the vehicle in its current state (for the purpose of the determination of which regard may be had to anything attached to or carried on or in it, and to the manner in which it is attached or carried) would be dangerous.

Correct - Road Traffic Act Section 2A

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/sectio...

[gareth_r]

Dr Jekyll said:

Driving a vehicle in a dangerous condition constitutes dangerous driving.

Specifically:

...if it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving the vehicle in its current state (for the purpose of the determination of which regard may be had to anything attached to or carried on or in it, and to the manner in which it is attached or carried) would be dangerous.

Thank you. That's actually helpful.

[rallycross]

Discussed before and agreed it may not have been dangerous driving but if it gets cars like that heap of crap off the road, and others who follow this trend then its no bad thing

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[Some Gump]

Not just worn, but worn clear through to canvas.

How is this NOT dangerous driving?

Now I realise that some people will claim that ABS isn't necessary, especially with someone as skilled as Paul Walker Mark Ward driving - but the police won't be looking at driver skill, just the car itself. Bald tyres and defective steering - more likely to get into pagga. No ABS - more likely for pagga to escelate. No horn - can't warn bus queue of impending pagga. No dash / airbags / door cards with all bits sticking out - result of pagga more bleed-y. Dodgy handbrake - car can't be parked on hill once the pagga is finished.

The driver claims that he's confident and the car is well prepped, but I'm calling custard on that. I've never seen anyone prep a car with tyres missing 2" of rubber, and if he's drifting (which uses the handbrake), then surely he'd do better with 2 working rear brakes than 1. I think he's just bang to rights, not "made an example of" - even though that facial hair clearly makes him eligible for special disdain.

[TooMany2cvs]

gareth_r said:

I could understand the police going for using a vehicle in a dangerous condition rather than the individual offences.

However, I thought that "dangerous driving" referred to the manner of driving. According to the defendant's solicitor “There’s no suggestion he was stopped for any poor driving.”.

How did vehicle faults result in a dangerous driving conviction?

This is how...
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/sectio...

The law said:

A person is also to be regarded as driving dangerously for the purposes of sections 1 and 2 above if it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving the vehicle in its current state would be dangerous.

At the end of the day, though, it's a bit irrelevant whatever you or I might think of the "state" (good word... as in "a right") of the car... he pleaded guilty.

[Humper]

Much as it pains me to agree with the "never been young and skint" mob on here, it was dangerous cos any fool could see the tyres were completely fked. Period. Gives an opening for the "think of the children" brigade to pick fault with anything not totally Pistonsnobs. He was unemployed so he had plenty of time to nick better tyres
There is a sorry trend to come down hard on young folk, slag their choices off, I don't, I remember jack up kits and wide wheels on the back, arse end waggled all over the place on every corner. But I always had tread on the tyres...

Oh, and inoperative ABS? I'm betting all who hark on about how dangerous it is wouldn't notice without the wee orange light.

[Some Gump]

Humper said:

Oh, and inoperative ABS? I'm betting all who hark on about how dangerous it is wouldn't notice without the wee orange light.

The accident investigation to most severe, massive fk ups is normally a combination of multiple small fkups that cases mass death, destruction and peril. I believe the american term is a clusterfk.

In this case, the probability of locking up with totally fked tyres that are through the compound for 2" and through the carcass all the way to rayon for 1cm ish is rather high - especially if the're not hot tyres / if there's wet anywhere / salty roads. It's march*, wet / salt / cold is inevitable.
Once locked up, the time from lock to tyre failure will be what, 2 seconds max? Now I appreciate that captain beard might know the term cadence braking, and might be able to do it on track - but what about when it hits the fan? Driving on track you're totally focused - when it hits the fan on the road odds are you're cruising along normally and some in a Zafira pulls out on you with a 30 mph closing speed. Any lockup on that tyre (avoidable with ABS) would be well painful for all involved.

So yeah, despite being a PHer, and loving many non ABS cars - in this situation, lack of ABS is totally dangerous IMO.

fk off pedants, this happened last week

[grkify]

Steering and tyres I agree are dangerous but as for ABS there are plenty of cars that dont have ABS so not to much of a big issue and as for the state of the interior honestly I couldn't care less it could have two inch spikes lining the dash I couldn't care less its not going to injure anyone but the driver and anyone stupid enough to get in it.

[mcford]

You'll find that cars fitted with ABS don't have a rear load sensing valve as do non ABS cars, so it would follow that a car with non functioning ABS will be more prone to rear wheel lock up and the loss of control that it involves.

[jesta1865]

gareth_r said:

but is it actually illegal to have some dash wires showing?

blimey that's half the land rovers on the road i suspect

[otolith]

mcford said:

You'll find that cars fitted with ABS don't have a rear load sensing valve as do non ABS cars, so it would follow that a car with non functioning ABS will be more prone to rear wheel lock up and the loss of control that it involves.

Last year one of the ABS reluctor rings on the Saab failed while we were on holiday. I tried locking the wheels on an exit slip to see how much of a problem it was likely to be - it locked up more easily and got a lot more squirrely than any car I've driven that wasn't designed to have ABS to begin with.

[Liquid Tuna]

Some Gump said:

Not just worn, but worn clear through to canvas.

How is this NOT dangerous driving?

Now I realise that some people will claim that ABS isn't necessary, especially with someone as skilled as Paul Walker Mark Ward driving - but the police won't be looking at driver skill, just the car itself. Bald tyres and defective steering - more likely to get into pagga. No ABS - more likely for pagga to escelate. No horn - can't warn bus queue of impending pagga. No dash / airbags / door cards with all bits sticking out - result of pagga more bleed-y. Dodgy handbrake - car can't be parked on hill once the pagga is finished.

The driver claims that he's confident and the car is well prepped, but I'm calling custard on that. I've never seen anyone prep a car with tyres missing 2" of rubber, and if he's drifting (which uses the handbrake), then surely he'd do better with 2 working rear brakes than 1. I think he's just bang to rights, not "made an example of" - even though that facial hair clearly makes him eligible for special disdain.

++++1

And surely anyone who drifts their car is going to be checking their tyres ALL the time!!? If I used my car for drifting and the Police showed me my tyres in that state, on a public highway, I cannot think of a single excuse for using the car with it in that condition, other than I must be a wker.