Lane discipline getting worse ?
Discussion
akirk said:
Vipers said:
robinessex said:
If you are gliding along on the inside lane at 70mph (max), and you cruised pass a middle lane hogger, you would not get pulled. It's acceptable acccording to the higway code.
RULE 163
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, YOU MAY PASS ON THE LEFT.
Some idiot in the middle lane is a queue, isn't it?
And you can pass either side on a one way steet. Which a dual carraigeway/motorway surely is.
I think only a judge could intepret that, not us simple motorists, what is "slowly", if you cruise past a motorists in L2 say doing 50 and you are doing 70, then there really is no queu, so the 2nd paragraph of the highway code wouldnt apply me thinks.RULE 163
stay in your lane if traffic is moving slowly in queues. If the queue on your right is moving more slowly than you are, YOU MAY PASS ON THE LEFT.
Some idiot in the middle lane is a queue, isn't it?
And you can pass either side on a one way steet. Which a dual carraigeway/motorway surely is.
Its one of this grey area I think. My view and this could be wrong, if like you, you are moving faster than those in the lane to your right, but you are within the limit, you are not undertaking.
However if you are behind a car in L3, and change to L2 to pass, then back into L3, that is undertaking, at least that how I see it. Fortunately I only use motorways once a year on my jaunt down south.
BTW a one street is not a dual carriageway.
This is a law which has been discussed many times online...
both the above are wrong
the highway code allows 'undertaking' only at times where there is solid traffic and you are all moving slowly and remaining in the same queues...
- so the motorway solid and all driving at 15-20 mph each in their own queue, then you go with the flow of the queue, it is not undertaking
- average speed cameras & roadworks - it would be undertaking
- normal motorway use - it is undertaking
if you have room to go past in the lane to the left of the other car, then they have room to move across to allow you past... if they don't the answer is not to undertake... one person's inability to drive doesn't justify another's choice in breaking the law!
- middle lane hoggers, your choice is simple, you overtake in the right lane, it might be arguable under the highway code to notify them of your presence as another road user with an appropriate use of lights / horn in case they haven't noticed you, but tail-gating / undertaking / etc. would be in breach of the highway code
- those queueing in the outside lane waiting to get past a slower car - no excuse for undertaking, if you also wish to get past, join the queue / slow down and wait for it to dissipate...
not complicated - anything else is simply trying to justify decisions for the motorist's benefit
akirk said:
- those queueing in the outside lane waiting to get past a slower car - no excuse for undertaking, if you also wish to get past, join the queue / slow down and wait for it to dissipate...
Outside lane rather than middle lane hogging is the situation I encounter more, driving more on two lane than three lane motorways/DCs. Of course if we're all stuck in a queue then that's not lane hogging, but you get the solitary ones, and those who seem to just forget to move back to lane 1 when the road ahead clears. Almost invariably I find after a headlamp flash or two they do change lanes after all, but occasionally they don't. Faced then with the only alternative to passing them on the left being to wait behind them indefinitely, I cannot escape the conclusion that we are not really in the situation that the authors of the rules were attempting to manage. You can argue that I am just trying to justify my decisions for my own benefit - and you'd probably be right - but it would be perverse in the extreme if those who wrote the rules really intended that the only right thing to do on encountering an isolated doofus like this is to wait behind them for ever (well, not perhaps not quite ever - it might only be half a mile before they do something, or it might be the next 50 miles or more). If the rules say that is what you must do, I cannot believe that is by design or intent. It seems to me that it must be just an unintended consequence of rules that are designed for situations with rather more traffic around.9mm said:
Except that not everything in the Highway Code is law.
you are correct - some is mandatory, and some is guidance (should / must difference)however I believe that you can be prosecuted for dangerous driving for not observing any of the guidance, so a starting point of observing the highway code is perhaps advisable
I am not sure that arguing with a cop on the side of the motorway that the HC is not strictly law will do much good...
and a legalistic approach to driving is unlikely to enhance anything!
akirk said:
9mm said:
Except that not everything in the Highway Code is law.
you are correct - some is mandatory, and some is guidance (should / must difference)however I believe that you can be prosecuted for dangerous driving for not observing any of the guidance, so a starting point of observing the highway code is perhaps advisable
I am not sure that arguing with a cop on the side of the motorway that the HC is not strictly law will do much good...
and a legalistic approach to driving is unlikely to enhance anything!
Stay in one lane and I'd say you'll never have a (Police) problem.
andygo said:
Anyway, you stick to your 'lane discipline' method as it's clearly a bit much for you to be confident about what's around you....
My problem is that I can't be confident because of the a
holes like you who straight-line roundabouts!It doesn't matter if you're the most observant in the world, at some point some idiot next to you whilst joining a multi-lane roundabout will go straight across, and the only thing stopping them from hitting you is if you get the spidey tingling sense and hold back. Luckily the super-powers have worked so far.
I was hit on the rear passenger-side wheel-arch when some numpty decided to change into my lane without checking or indicating - lane discipline is non-existent to some drivers.
shandyboy said:
My problem is that I can't be confident because of the aholes like you who straight-line roundabouts!
The way to be confident you won't get driven into is by not traversing roundabouts alongside other people. Even if you managed to persuade all the people who deliberately, consciously and carefully decide to sometimes straightline roundabouts not to do it any more, you would still have all the lazy, incompetent numpties who are't paying attention to their line to worry about. The only way you can avoid them is to not go round with anyone else - that's rule number one for roundabouts.holes like you who straight-line roundabouts!And then you have the middle lane hoggers who can't abide being passed by a lesser car than theirs in the outside lane and feel the need to display their superior virility by flooring it just as you draw level with the rear quarter of their car.
Yes Mr RS6 on the 3 lane uphill section of the A1M at Carville on Sunday the 3rd of May 2015 I am talking about you in particular here.
For the purpose of the story I was maintaining a steady 70mph in the inside lane, on the fairly clear and empty motorway, forward visibility of the road of say a quarter of a mile? Mr RS6 maintaining a steady 50mph.
As I approach the uphill section of motorway where it widens out to 3 lanes Mr RS6 is in the middle lane and I have almost caught up with him (as we have both been maintaining the same speeds as previous), halfway up the hill I am in a position to overtake Mr RS6 so move into the outside lane, pretty much as I am level with his rear bumper the back end drops and away he goes up the hill reaching a much higher speed than the one I have maintained since joining the motorway 3 miles earlier.
Pull in to the now vacant middle lane (as there is now a car on the inside lane) and continue my journey up the road, only to catch up with Mr RS6 (while still maintaining the same speed) and pass a little further down the road.
Maybe Mr RS6 wasn't aware that the car approaching him wasn't a 135i, but only a lowly 116D?
Maybe Mr RS6 didn't notice my child sat in the passenger seat?
Maybe Mr RS6 had just received his peacock feather back from the dry cleaners and was so proud of them he felt the need to display them in all their gloriousness?
Who knows?
Everybody loves a good story.
Everybody loves a nice car (And an RS6 is a really nice car)
But nobody likes a k**b jockey behind the wheel.
Yes Mr RS6 on the 3 lane uphill section of the A1M at Carville on Sunday the 3rd of May 2015 I am talking about you in particular here.
For the purpose of the story I was maintaining a steady 70mph in the inside lane, on the fairly clear and empty motorway, forward visibility of the road of say a quarter of a mile? Mr RS6 maintaining a steady 50mph.
As I approach the uphill section of motorway where it widens out to 3 lanes Mr RS6 is in the middle lane and I have almost caught up with him (as we have both been maintaining the same speeds as previous), halfway up the hill I am in a position to overtake Mr RS6 so move into the outside lane, pretty much as I am level with his rear bumper the back end drops and away he goes up the hill reaching a much higher speed than the one I have maintained since joining the motorway 3 miles earlier.
Pull in to the now vacant middle lane (as there is now a car on the inside lane) and continue my journey up the road, only to catch up with Mr RS6 (while still maintaining the same speed) and pass a little further down the road.
Maybe Mr RS6 wasn't aware that the car approaching him wasn't a 135i, but only a lowly 116D?
Maybe Mr RS6 didn't notice my child sat in the passenger seat?
Maybe Mr RS6 had just received his peacock feather back from the dry cleaners and was so proud of them he felt the need to display them in all their gloriousness?
Who knows?
Everybody loves a good story.
Everybody loves a nice car (And an RS6 is a really nice car)
But nobody likes a k**b jockey behind the wheel.
SK425 said:
The way to be confident you won't get driven into is by not traversing roundabouts alongside other people. Even if you managed to persuade all the people who deliberately, consciously and carefully decide to sometimes straightline roundabouts not to do it any more, you would still have all the lazy, incompetent numpties who are't paying attention to their line to worry about. The only way you can avoid them is to not go round with anyone else - that's rule number one for roundabouts.
I take your point. The ones mentally choosing to straight-line the odd roundabout when it's quiet aren't the problem - it's the brain-dead drivers who don't even know they're straight-lining the curvey-roundy-thingy...Still doesn't mean you won't get driven into (unless you make sure you never overtake or drive alongside another car) but I guess that's what insurance (and dashcams!) are for.
swisstoni said:
It's no good banging on about the legalities - it simply is not being enforced at anything more than a trivial level.
So if, for the sake of argument, roadside cameras detected this offence and did actually send the fine/points through the post as do fixed/mobile speed( sorry safety ) cameras then would people start to use the left hand lane ? Would this offence become a thing of the past ?
Its bad - I especially dislike and try to avoid being in the middle of 3 lanes for traffic light controlled roundabouts as you just know the cars on either side will most likely stray out of their lane without intending to do so.
Also what's with most cars now driving down the middle of 2 lane slip roads onto dual carriageways, thus preventing anyone with a quicker car from overtaking them and actually using the slip road to get up to a reasonable speed whilst looking for a gap to merge into?
Also what's with most cars now driving down the middle of 2 lane slip roads onto dual carriageways, thus preventing anyone with a quicker car from overtaking them and actually using the slip road to get up to a reasonable speed whilst looking for a gap to merge into?
johnS2000 said:
swisstoni said:
It's no good banging on about the legalities - it simply is not being enforced at anything more than a trivial level.
So if, for the sake of argument, roadside cameras detected this offence and did actually send the fine/points through the post as do fixed/mobile speed( sorry safety ) cameras then would people start to use the left hand lane ? Would this offence become a thing of the past ?
I'm not talking about the odd 1 or 2 but about all of them .
If you get a set of road works with average speed cameras nobody speeds ! The odd 1 or 2 yes but average speed cameras work ! Nobody speeds through them .
If cameras monitoring motorways picked up cars in an overtaking lane with no cars in front of them and sent an automatic fine/points through the post then there would be no choice but to move over .
So as mlm's are despised and complained about every other day by a vast majority then cameras should be considered .
If you get a set of road works with average speed cameras nobody speeds ! The odd 1 or 2 yes but average speed cameras work ! Nobody speeds through them .
If cameras monitoring motorways picked up cars in an overtaking lane with no cars in front of them and sent an automatic fine/points through the post then there would be no choice but to move over .
So as mlm's are despised and complained about every other day by a vast majority then cameras should be considered .
SK425 said:
The way to be confident you won't get driven into is by not traversing roundabouts alongside other people. Even if you managed to persuade all the people who deliberately, consciously and carefully decide to sometimes straightline roundabouts not to do it any more, you would still have all the lazy, incompetent numpties who are't paying attention to their line to worry about. The only way you can avoid them is to not go round with anyone else - that's rule number one for roundabouts.
Good luck with that in London (or any other busy area)Jasandjules said:
Not just lane discipline in the same direction, I am more frequently seeing people cut corners (A few times causing me to emergency stop to avoid a collision as I head to the junction), and people travelling in my lane when travelling in the opposite direction - even around blind corners..
This is now reaching epidemic proportions.More and more over the past few months I have been experiencing oncoming cars straddling the centre line.
Only really noticed it as a thing at the start of this year - but I am seeing it several times on almost every journey these days.
As the post above - seems very common on corners, but I am seeing it more and more on straights too. It's almost as if people have lost the ability to judge where the left side of their car is in relation to the kerb/hedge.
Only really noticed it as a thing at the start of this year - but I am seeing it several times on almost every journey these days.
As the post above - seems very common on corners, but I am seeing it more and more on straights too. It's almost as if people have lost the ability to judge where the left side of their car is in relation to the kerb/hedge.
shandyboy said:
My problem is that I can't be confident because of the aholes like you who straight-line roundabouts!
My daily drive takes me up Anderson Drive through Aberdeen. It's a two lane carriageway both ways, not a dual carriageway, (except little bits of it).holes like you who straight-line roundabouts!Just about 99.9% of drivers entering from both lanes at 6'oclock, exit at 12'oclock.
I am probably less than 1% who bother indicating left as I pass the 9'oclock exit. Why can't drivers bother indicating, it lets those entering from 12'oclock position they. Isn't rocket science.
Vipers said:
shandyboy said:
My problem is that I can't be confident because of the aholes like you who straight-line roundabouts!
My daily drive takes me up Anderson Drive through Aberdeen. It's a two lane carriageway both ways, not a dual carriageway, (except little bits of it).holes like you who straight-line roundabouts!Just about 99.9% of drivers entering from both lanes at 6'oclock, exit at 12'oclock.
I am probably less than 1% who bother indicating left as I pass the 9'oclock exit. Why can't drivers bother indicating, it lets those entering from 12'oclock position they. Isn't rocket science.
in DSA test preparation they will have been taught to follow the lane round , making lane changes as necessary
if they have done any Driver development / Advanced driving / Emergency driving they will have been taught hoiw to straight line safely - which starts with " is the traffic light enough / stopped by others to make straightlining safe "
shandyboy said:
I take your point. The ones mentally choosing to straight-line the odd roundabout when it's quiet aren't the problem - it's the brain-dead drivers who don't even know they're straight-lining the curvey-roundy-thingy...
Still doesn't mean you won't get driven into (unless you make sure you never overtake or drive alongside another car) but I guess that's what insurance (and dashcams!) are for.
NO- the way to avoid a side shunt is to either get into a roundabout faster than another car to prevent it getting alongside ( by observing & anticipating traffic ahead into the roundabout) .That takes care of the brain dead ones, who most likely will stop( at the entry ) to check that their path is clear, whereas you have looked ahead and seen all is clear to beat them across the roundabout. Those using advanced techniques, will have adjusted the approach to either get in before you, or let you get in front, but will pass you on the exit, thanks to better planning etc. Still doesn't mean you won't get driven into (unless you make sure you never overtake or drive alongside another car) but I guess that's what insurance (and dashcams!) are for.
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