Are we missing the point re parking?
Discussion
Disastrous said:
Why not is a bad reason to ban things, I think.
Also, assuming the on-street parking isn't actually affecting traffic flow then why does it matter?
Also also, specifics aside, I utterly hate the idea of living in a society where what I can have is governed entirely by the state's opinion of it's utility to me. It's sometimes nice to have things that aren't entirely necessary without having to justify it.
Would you like to wear state-issued jumpsuits rather than be free to purchase whatever clothes you want? Or should people with outlandish taste be forced to conform? I appreciate your point about congestion but I think freedom is a more pressing issue.
You obviously hate it because you gone off on a total tangent without listening to anything I said.Also, assuming the on-street parking isn't actually affecting traffic flow then why does it matter?
Also also, specifics aside, I utterly hate the idea of living in a society where what I can have is governed entirely by the state's opinion of it's utility to me. It's sometimes nice to have things that aren't entirely necessary without having to justify it.
Would you like to wear state-issued jumpsuits rather than be free to purchase whatever clothes you want? Or should people with outlandish taste be forced to conform? I appreciate your point about congestion but I think freedom is a more pressing issue.
Nobody is saying you can't have a car. Anyone who wants a car can walk out and buy one, just like today. You can have a stupid American Canyonero SUV if you like, nobody is suggesting you aren't free to choose whatever car you like. The only difference is that if you want a large car, you need somewhere to keep it.
It's not about restricting freedom, there is no being forced to conform, there is no justifying nice things required. Just a limitation on the usage of a scarce, publicly owned resource.
Mr Will said:
Disastrous said:
Why not is a bad reason to ban things, I think.
Also, assuming the on-street parking isn't actually affecting traffic flow then why does it matter?
Also also, specifics aside, I utterly hate the idea of living in a society where what I can have is governed entirely by the state's opinion of it's utility to me. It's sometimes nice to have things that aren't entirely necessary without having to justify it.
Would you like to wear state-issued jumpsuits rather than be free to purchase whatever clothes you want? Or should people with outlandish taste be forced to conform? I appreciate your point about congestion but I think freedom is a more pressing issue.
You obviously hate it because you gone off on a total tangent without listening to anything I said.Also, assuming the on-street parking isn't actually affecting traffic flow then why does it matter?
Also also, specifics aside, I utterly hate the idea of living in a society where what I can have is governed entirely by the state's opinion of it's utility to me. It's sometimes nice to have things that aren't entirely necessary without having to justify it.
Would you like to wear state-issued jumpsuits rather than be free to purchase whatever clothes you want? Or should people with outlandish taste be forced to conform? I appreciate your point about congestion but I think freedom is a more pressing issue.
Nobody is saying you can't have a car. Anyone who wants a car can walk out and buy one, just like today. You can have a stupid American Canyonero SUV if you like, nobody is suggesting you aren't free to choose whatever car you like. The only difference is that if you want a large car, you need somewhere to keep it.
It's not about restricting freedom, there is no being forced to conform, there is no justifying nice things required. Just a limitation on the usage of a scarce, publicly owned resource.
My examples were more of a continuation of the mindset as I see it - apologies if you thought I was ranting or not paying attention to what you'd said.
jith said:
In the early '60s the Beatles recorded a song called, "Lovely Rita Meter Maid". It referred to the very first incarnation of a traffic warden, i.e. women in smart uniforms patrolling the streets of London issuing tickets to drivers who were over their time on a meter.
These meters were the brainchild of some jobsworth in the London Council and it was simply a way of extracting more money from the motorist for parking at the side of the road. This concept has to be fully understood for the iniquitous practice that it is. This is not the provision of a car park or proper safe parking facilities. This is simply stopping at the side of the road with your vehicle responsibly positioned so as not to create a hazard to others and having to pay to do so. You have, of course, already paid for the right to use the highway through your road tax and the plethera of other taxes, i.e. fuel duty, company car tax, VAT, VAT on fuel duty, etc. The council provide absolutely nothing other than the equipment they need to fine you.
Whilst this system has blossomed into the utter, complete chaotic shambles we have now, we have had to suffer a whole raft of persecution over the years for daring to stop safely at the side of the road in the form of wheel clamps, massively increased penalties, vehicle removal and even crushing, and now finally legalised thugs in the form of private companies who count their profits in the millions.
Throughout this period however what has been almost totally neglected, especially now, is the motorist who will leave their vehicle in the most appalling positions, on many occasions dangerously so, the idiots in public car parks such as supermarkets who deliberately park on double yellow lines, disabled bays or anywhere they can to get as near to the entrance as possible because they can't get off their fat arses and walk a few yards; or they are determined to let the neighbourhood know they have this years BMW or whatever.
People who park on the wrong side of the road facing into oncoming traffic with their headlights on blinding every oncoming driver; the very same type who pull up suddenly at the side of the road and throw their door open into the path of an oncoming vehicle.
Parking for the authorities has developed into a huge revenue stream. It is totally devoid of the concept of enforcing regulation against those who would abandon vehicles dangerously. In other words it has nothing to do with safety or alleviating congestion, but everything to do with making money.
I have absolutely no problem with booking idiots for dangerous parking. I am absolutely opposed to charging for parking at the roadside.
J
Traffic Wardens were Police Staff and had constabulary powers to direct and regulate traffic as well as issuing Fixed penalties These meters were the brainchild of some jobsworth in the London Council and it was simply a way of extracting more money from the motorist for parking at the side of the road. This concept has to be fully understood for the iniquitous practice that it is. This is not the provision of a car park or proper safe parking facilities. This is simply stopping at the side of the road with your vehicle responsibly positioned so as not to create a hazard to others and having to pay to do so. You have, of course, already paid for the right to use the highway through your road tax and the plethera of other taxes, i.e. fuel duty, company car tax, VAT, VAT on fuel duty, etc. The council provide absolutely nothing other than the equipment they need to fine you.
Whilst this system has blossomed into the utter, complete chaotic shambles we have now, we have had to suffer a whole raft of persecution over the years for daring to stop safely at the side of the road in the form of wheel clamps, massively increased penalties, vehicle removal and even crushing, and now finally legalised thugs in the form of private companies who count their profits in the millions.
Throughout this period however what has been almost totally neglected, especially now, is the motorist who will leave their vehicle in the most appalling positions, on many occasions dangerously so, the idiots in public car parks such as supermarkets who deliberately park on double yellow lines, disabled bays or anywhere they can to get as near to the entrance as possible because they can't get off their fat arses and walk a few yards; or they are determined to let the neighbourhood know they have this years BMW or whatever.
People who park on the wrong side of the road facing into oncoming traffic with their headlights on blinding every oncoming driver; the very same type who pull up suddenly at the side of the road and throw their door open into the path of an oncoming vehicle.
Parking for the authorities has developed into a huge revenue stream. It is totally devoid of the concept of enforcing regulation against those who would abandon vehicles dangerously. In other words it has nothing to do with safety or alleviating congestion, but everything to do with making money.
I have absolutely no problem with booking idiots for dangerous parking. I am absolutely opposed to charging for parking at the roadside.
J
civilianisation of Parking enforcement by LAs is a much later 'innovation'
Dammit said:
Why is it ridiculous? If they bought a massive sofa should they be allowed to put it in the street as well?
You pay quite a lot of tax/insurance to have a car on the road. I don't recall anything about it having to be moving at the time.A sofa is a piece of home furniture so not really relevant at all.
Disastrous said:
I have listened to what you said. My point is that restrictions are just more things to make life difficult. Lots of people live in flats and have to rely on on-street parking. Ridiculous to try and force them into a tiny car IMO.
My examples were more of a continuation of the mindset as I see it - apologies if you thought I was ranting or not paying attention to what you'd said.
They'd make my life easier, and a lot of other peoples. It would be easier to get from A to B and easier to park once I arrived at B. Yes, there would be some people who'd suffer in the transition but that is true of any change.My examples were more of a continuation of the mindset as I see it - apologies if you thought I was ranting or not paying attention to what you'd said.
Disastrous said:
You pay quite a lot of tax/insurance to have a car on the road. I don't recall anything about it having to be moving at the time.
A sofa is a piece of home furniture so not really relevant at all.
Rubbish, you pay insurance to drive a car, that's got nothing to do with this. A sofa is a piece of home furniture so not really relevant at all.
What is under discussion is whether people should be allowed to store their personal possessions (a vehicle) on the public street.
Dammit said:
Disastrous said:
You pay quite a lot of tax/insurance to have a car on the road. I don't recall anything about it having to be moving at the time.
A sofa is a piece of home furniture so not really relevant at all.
Rubbish, you pay insurance to drive a car, that's got nothing to do with this. A sofa is a piece of home furniture so not really relevant at all.
What is under discussion is whether people should be allowed to store their personal possessions (a vehicle) on the public street.
And I disagree that that's what's under discussion. The discussion quite specifically pertains to parking a car at the side of the road. NOT 'parking' other possessions that would not normally be on a road anyway.
mph1977 said:
jith said:
In the early '60s the Beatles recorded a song called, "Lovely Rita Meter Maid". It referred to the very first incarnation of a traffic warden, i.e. women in smart uniforms patrolling the streets of London issuing tickets to drivers who were over their time on a meter.
These meters were the brainchild of some jobsworth in the London Council and it was simply a way of extracting more money from the motorist for parking at the side of the road. This concept has to be fully understood for the iniquitous practice that it is. This is not the provision of a car park or proper safe parking facilities. This is simply stopping at the side of the road with your vehicle responsibly positioned so as not to create a hazard to others and having to pay to do so. You have, of course, already paid for the right to use the highway through your road tax and the plethera of other taxes, i.e. fuel duty, company car tax, VAT, VAT on fuel duty, etc. The council provide absolutely nothing other than the equipment they need to fine you.
Whilst this system has blossomed into the utter, complete chaotic shambles we have now, we have had to suffer a whole raft of persecution over the years for daring to stop safely at the side of the road in the form of wheel clamps, massively increased penalties, vehicle removal and even crushing, and now finally legalised thugs in the form of private companies who count their profits in the millions.
Throughout this period however what has been almost totally neglected, especially now, is the motorist who will leave their vehicle in the most appalling positions, on many occasions dangerously so, the idiots in public car parks such as supermarkets who deliberately park on double yellow lines, disabled bays or anywhere they can to get as near to the entrance as possible because they can't get off their fat arses and walk a few yards; or they are determined to let the neighbourhood know they have this years BMW or whatever.
People who park on the wrong side of the road facing into oncoming traffic with their headlights on blinding every oncoming driver; the very same type who pull up suddenly at the side of the road and throw their door open into the path of an oncoming vehicle.
Parking for the authorities has developed into a huge revenue stream. It is totally devoid of the concept of enforcing regulation against those who would abandon vehicles dangerously. In other words it has nothing to do with safety or alleviating congestion, but everything to do with making money.
I have absolutely no problem with booking idiots for dangerous parking. I am absolutely opposed to charging for parking at the roadside.
J
Traffic Wardens were Police Staff and had constabulary powers to direct and regulate traffic as well as issuing Fixed penalties These meters were the brainchild of some jobsworth in the London Council and it was simply a way of extracting more money from the motorist for parking at the side of the road. This concept has to be fully understood for the iniquitous practice that it is. This is not the provision of a car park or proper safe parking facilities. This is simply stopping at the side of the road with your vehicle responsibly positioned so as not to create a hazard to others and having to pay to do so. You have, of course, already paid for the right to use the highway through your road tax and the plethera of other taxes, i.e. fuel duty, company car tax, VAT, VAT on fuel duty, etc. The council provide absolutely nothing other than the equipment they need to fine you.
Whilst this system has blossomed into the utter, complete chaotic shambles we have now, we have had to suffer a whole raft of persecution over the years for daring to stop safely at the side of the road in the form of wheel clamps, massively increased penalties, vehicle removal and even crushing, and now finally legalised thugs in the form of private companies who count their profits in the millions.
Throughout this period however what has been almost totally neglected, especially now, is the motorist who will leave their vehicle in the most appalling positions, on many occasions dangerously so, the idiots in public car parks such as supermarkets who deliberately park on double yellow lines, disabled bays or anywhere they can to get as near to the entrance as possible because they can't get off their fat arses and walk a few yards; or they are determined to let the neighbourhood know they have this years BMW or whatever.
People who park on the wrong side of the road facing into oncoming traffic with their headlights on blinding every oncoming driver; the very same type who pull up suddenly at the side of the road and throw their door open into the path of an oncoming vehicle.
Parking for the authorities has developed into a huge revenue stream. It is totally devoid of the concept of enforcing regulation against those who would abandon vehicles dangerously. In other words it has nothing to do with safety or alleviating congestion, but everything to do with making money.
I have absolutely no problem with booking idiots for dangerous parking. I am absolutely opposed to charging for parking at the roadside.
J
civilianisation of Parking enforcement by LAs is a much later 'innovation'
The de-criminalisation of parking was completely the wrong way to go as it finally removed the powers that wardens had to manage traffic and turned them into ticket writers working for highly profitable private companies. It also threw the jobs they could no longer do back onto the police who were already stretched in traffic and are even worse now.
I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't see the staggering immorality in that needs to waken up.
J
Disastrous said:
And I disagree that that's what's under discussion. The discussion quite specifically pertains to parking a car at the side of the road. NOT 'parking' other possessions that would not normally be on a road anyway.
Nope, it's storage that is under discussion. Short term roadside parking would still be allowed (where appropriate) but you'd be expected store your car in a proper space when at home. In Japan this is typically policed by not allowing overnight on-street parking - anything left in the road between 3am and 4am will be ticketed or towed.Mr Will said:
Disastrous said:
And I disagree that that's what's under discussion. The discussion quite specifically pertains to parking a car at the side of the road. NOT 'parking' other possessions that would not normally be on a road anyway.
Nope, it's storage that is under discussion. Short term roadside parking would still be allowed (where appropriate) but you'd be expected store your car in a proper space when at home. In Japan this is typically policed by not allowing overnight on-street parking - anything left in the road between 3am and 4am will be ticketed or towed.Anyway, you want to ban car 'storage' and I don't, so I suppose we're bound not to agree.
Disastrous said:
Mr Will said:
Disastrous said:
And I disagree that that's what's under discussion. The discussion quite specifically pertains to parking a car at the side of the road. NOT 'parking' other possessions that would not normally be on a road anyway.
Nope, it's storage that is under discussion. Short term roadside parking would still be allowed (where appropriate) but you'd be expected store your car in a proper space when at home. In Japan this is typically policed by not allowing overnight on-street parking - anything left in the road between 3am and 4am will be ticketed or towed.Anyway, you want to ban car 'storage' and I don't, so I suppose we're bound not to agree.
supermono said:
All this selfish parking / ripoff private companies profiteering etc. If every council stopped making a profit out of parking and instead provided ample free on and off road parking in our towns the problem would disappear.
My town has free parking on Sundays/Bank holidays. It has no parking attendants on duty.If you go into town on a Sunday the bus stops have cars on them and the buses block the road when picking up passengers. Access to dropped kerbs is often difficult and at the top of the high street large vehicles have difficulty getting around because of cars parked in ridiculous and thoughtless places. It is no problem, though, as the car parks, often as much as a two minute walk away, one oddly enough nearer the town centre than where cars park and block the turning vehicles, are empty.
I'm all for these charges. It reduces my local rates and you can avoid them by parking sensibly.
supermono said:
Street view is definitely your friend here. I have a number of free spots lined up where I normally go shopping or use train stations away from my local one. It's simple especially since I have a folding bike. This morning I'm parked two minutes from a train station on faulty double yellows that were there for no good reason and am harming nobody. That's probably at least 6 quid saved. Last month I got a speculative ticket which I had turned over so maybe I'll get another today but if you know the law it takes seconds to post a standard email.
Sheep who park in paid for carparks must waste hundreds a year, and when you can park without inconveniencing anyone for free and get two or three free tanks of petrol or your annual road tax paid for you'd be daft not to.
However, my point remains about the council causing the issue of selfish parking.
I'm still interested to know who you think is sitting on large tracts of land that you think should be provided to the motorist for nothing or very little. Sheep who park in paid for carparks must waste hundreds a year, and when you can park without inconveniencing anyone for free and get two or three free tanks of petrol or your annual road tax paid for you'd be daft not to.
However, my point remains about the council causing the issue of selfish parking.
I agree that car park charges can damage the high street and that a balance should be found, but I also see that the council could simply sell the land to developers and that'll be the end of those car parks - and who is duty bound to provide services for those who do not want to pay?
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