Shooting dog on farmland
Discussion
I think Welsh Pirate hit the nail on the head, what the dogs do to sheep and lambs is horrific. Needs must.Had you no idea of the pain and suffering your dog might cause not only to animals but their owners. How could you live in a country area and be so insensitive. But thanks for posting as it has raised some good issues and hopefully will lead to both more dogs and sheep surviving.
majordad said:
I think Welsh Pirate hit the nail on the head, what the dogs do to sheep and lambs is horrific.
+1People should have a look at the newspaper link posted by Eldar. I actually know the farmer in that link and he isn't the sort of chap to want to be in the paper for no reason, but when you see the pictures, you realise why he felt the need to educate the public.
87 sheep and lambs killed in a couple of weeks.
Eldar's link: http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/runaway-dog-leav...
herewego said:
So according to S9 3(b) the farmer can't shoot the dog if he knows who the owner is? That seems nuts. Perhaps he should have visited the owner and insisted it be put down, is that possible?
What if you know that the daag belongs to the local pie keys? Are you supposed to leave the daag to his worrying and go round to the local encampment and tell Mr O'Flynn politely that his daag is behaving rather unreasonably in the vicinity of your sheep and you'd be grateful if he could come and remove it from the scene?I feel for the OP as losing a dog is horrible but it seems to me that his inaction over the control of the animal left the farmer with no choice.
. Jasandjules said:
Red Devil said:
However a physical attack is not necessary for the offence to be complete.
For an offence by the OP yes.
That is the point I was making in response to rouge59. Maybe a few £1000 fines might get the message across. There is no reason whatsoever for any responsible dog owner to NOT have their dog on a leash when in the vicinity of sheep. Jasandjules said:
But we are currently seeking the law upon which a farmer can shoot a dog which is leaving his sheep/moving away - as yet no-one appears to have provided any.
My recollection from reading this law years ago is that the farmer in these circumstances is committing an offence both under civil and criminal law. I am still waiting for someone to provide the legislation or case law to support the farmer. Views such as "of course he can" and "I understand why he did it" doesn't quite cut the mustard.
As mentioned by allergictocheese the Animals Act 1971 provides a farmer with a specific defence. If the only witness is the farmer then how is the dog owner to prove that his/her mutt was 'moving away'? In fact one of the criteria is whether it is still in the vicinity.My recollection from reading this law years ago is that the farmer in these circumstances is committing an offence both under civil and criminal law. I am still waiting for someone to provide the legislation or case law to support the farmer. Views such as "of course he can" and "I understand why he did it" doesn't quite cut the mustard.
This article provides some balance - http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/advice-for-farmers...
It is also worth remembering that what matters is the magistrates' decision based on the evidence. There are far too many dog owners who just simply don't 'get' it. Furthermore it is likely that the bench in a rural area will side with the farmer as is shown by this fairly recent case.
https://www.fginsight.com/news/farmer-cleared-of-s...
As it happened the house I grew up in had 16 acres of adjoining fields. My father was not a farmer so he let them at a nominal rent to a local one who was in need of more grazing space. Win/win for both parties. This was not long after the 1953 Act became law so the agreement specifically excluded putting sheep onto our land because it would have been difficult to make our front and back gardens escape proof for our 3 dogs.
As it happened the farmer had a prize winning herd of Guernseys (IIRC one of the top 3 in the UK at that time) so the clause was never an issue for him. Dodging cowpats became second nature for me and my sister when going for a walk! It's not until you get up close and personal next to a cow, with nothing between you (like a fence), that you realise just now big it is. An angry one is more than a match for most dogs (or people). Indeed they will often act in concert, especially when in calf. I still remember the day I got chased out of our top field because I had forgotten the farmer's advice to stay out of it. I got to know the farm hands very well. So much so that the first vehicle I ever drove was one of these. It was my birthday and I had reached the ripe old age of 12!
zygalski said:
After carefully reading this thread in its entirety the only thing I take away from it is that some people should never be allowed to own a dog.
I remember hearing on the radio a while back some statistic about the percentage of properly trained dogs in the UK and it was well below halfunrepentant said:
herewego said:
So according to S9 3(b) the farmer can't shoot the dog if he knows who the owner is? That seems nuts. Perhaps he should have visited the owner and insisted it be put down, is that possible?
What if you know that the daag belongs to the local pie keys? Are you supposed to leave the daag to his worrying and go round to the local encampment and tell Mr O'Flynn politely that his daag is behaving rather unreasonably in the vicinity of your sheep and you'd be grateful if he could come and remove it from the scene?I feel for the OP as losing a dog is horrible but it seems to me that his inaction over the control of the animal left the farmer with no choice.
My view... (having grown up in farming area, where sheep are the main livelihood as opposed to arable or cows/pigs, etc)
Dog was loose, in the field, and not for the first time. It had been worrying sheep. The OP comes from farming family and presumably knows the impact of dogs on sheep (i.e. he is not naïve to the issues)
Direction of dog at time of shooting seems immaterial. It was loose in the field with sheep with no owner present (and specifically, sheep), and not for the first time? The legalities are somewhat immaterial. The police are not going to deploy CSI-Canis to determine exact direction of dog at time of shooting. It was alone, in a field having just been worrying sheep.
The farmer will have taken no joy in shooting a good dog, but it's his livelihood at stake (and cost, time, vets bills).Aat the end of the day, and by whatever means, the dog did escape from it's owner for the Nth time.
Sorry for your loss of a pet OP, but I think you need to take a step back, seek reconciliation with the farmer and talk to him in a week once the raw emotion has subsided a bit and see what his losses are from the incident.
Vaud said:
Direction of dog at time of shooting seems immaterial. It was loose in the field with sheep with no owner present (and specifically, sheep), and not for the first time? The legalities are somewhat immaterial. The police are not going to deploy CSI-Canis to determine exact direction of dog at time of shooting. It was alone, in a field having just been worrying sheep.
The dog was called Belgrano.unrepentant said:
What if you know that the daag belongs to the local pie keys? Are you supposed to leave the daag to his worrying and go round to the local encampment and tell Mr O'Flynn politely that his daag is behaving rather unreasonably in the vicinity of your sheep and you'd be grateful if he could come and remove it from the scene?
I feel for the OP as losing a dog is horrible but it seems to me that his inaction over the control of the animal left the farmer with no choice.
I read on a farming based forum a while ago how some itinerants rocked up and let their daags run riot in some sheep (this might have been in Ireland). Farmer follows daags back to the cheeky chappies camp and asks if they knew who this daag belonged to "no, no, sir, I have never seen this daag before in moi loif". Click BANG. "What about this one?" "no sir I have never seen that daag in moi loif". Click BANG. That was the end of the daag problem. I feel for the OP as losing a dog is horrible but it seems to me that his inaction over the control of the animal left the farmer with no choice.
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