Speed awareness worth doing?
Discussion
Do the course - chance to be a star pupil and shine as I never got very fired up in school but if its got wheels and makes a noise and I'd already done the IAM test... 
Mine was little to do with speed (false pretences really...) and far more about roadcraft and anticipation and reading the road. As someone else said staggering what non petrolheads don't know... I also had a discussion with the nice chap (a petrolhead...) and straightened out a couple of things that were verging on the BS so all in all a nice day out!!!
No one could have been more shocked than me - and it fills the coffers of the ex chief coppers on the company's board too
Everyone's a winner!
Mine was little to do with speed (false pretences really...) and far more about roadcraft and anticipation and reading the road. As someone else said staggering what non petrolheads don't know... I also had a discussion with the nice chap (a petrolhead...) and straightened out a couple of things that were verging on the BS so all in all a nice day out!!!
No one could have been more shocked than me - and it fills the coffers of the ex chief coppers on the company's board too
Everyone's a winner!eatcustard said:
Any education has to be worth it.
That's not accurate if the 'facts' are loaded so those being taught make inappropriate assumptions.The classic example in a speed awareness course is when they talk about the likelihood of someone dying. What you are typically taught is: At 30mph you have a 20% chance of being killed, while at 40mph there was an 80% chance of death.
They rely on the fact that the average person is not able to take this raw data and apply it in the appropriate way. They want you to draw conclusions from it that are not justified.
It is based on data from a 1979 Ashton and Mackay scientific paper. Pedestrian impact safety of cars has made massive improvements since then. I don't know whether modern cars change the numbers to make the gap wider or smaller. Unfortunately the course doesn't say so everyone is just left poorly educated.
Additionally they are relying on most people equating survival statistics at 30mph and 40mph impacts with the common speed limits of 30mph and 40mph. If you want to use these statistics to justify encouraging people to stick to speed limits you need more data. As an example, what is the average impact speed of a fatal crash in 30mph and 40mph limits? I want to see the data for fatality numbers against cruising speed delta to the speed limit 10 seconds before the crash, i.e. were they above or below the limit before starting their emergency braking.
Take the example of someone cruising at 60mph in a 60mph limit who then emergency brakes for an impact speed of 40mph which results in a fatality. This statistic makes up part of the 80% of 40mph collisions that are fatal and is used on the course to encourage people to stick to 30mph limits.
They lose ground and my respect for what they do in applying inappropriate (and ever decreasing) limits BUT doing 30 in a populated area 30 limit seems like a better idea than chancing 40 - and of course it will have absolutely less impact on any pedestrian collision. Bit of a no brainer really?
Ken Figenus said:
They lose ground and my respect for what they do in applying inappropriate (and ever decreasing) limits BUT doing 30 in a populated area 30 limit seems like a better idea than chancing 40 - and of course it will have absolutely less impact on any pedestrian collision. Bit of a no brainer really?
Of course. But my colleague got one for doing 46 in the M42 variable at 6 something in the morning when there was not much about. Most of the people on his course had been caught the same way.As it happens, he was OK about it - he can take a day off work and not lose pay so easy day for him. I'd have been furious - it's got nothing at all to do with road safety.
Sheepshanks said:
Of course. But my colleague got one for doing 46 in the M42 variable at 6 something in the morning when there was not much about. Most of the people on his course had been caught the same way.
As it happens, he was OK about it - he can take a day off work and not lose pay so easy day for him. I'd have been furious - it's got nothing at all to do with road safety.
Agree, its their lack of discretion and common sense that loses them the argument and moral high ground. I'm certain it has far more to do with money than safety. After all who wouldn't love a camera van in their village/street now and again - but it rarely ever happens; they prefer to shoot fish in a barrel for often largely real-world irrelevant speeding but with higher customers per minute turnover/profit.As it happens, he was OK about it - he can take a day off work and not lose pay so easy day for him. I'd have been furious - it's got nothing at all to do with road safety.
Edited by Ken Figenus on Thursday 21st May 14:01
tony wright said:
A vehicle had drove over the brow of a hill at the correct speed limit and there was a right turn 100m over the top. Second vehicle had stopped waiting to turn right and the first vehicle went straight into the back of it pushing it over the road directly into the path of oncoming traffic resulting in serious injuries all round. So we went through the normal malarkey of slowing down etc but the instructors default answer shocked me. He said the best thing to of done in this situation would of been for the car turning right to have stopped at the brow and wait for a gap in oncoming traffic before proceeding to move forward and turn right. Remember the turning is 100m away so you best know how fast your car accelerates and hope the traffic is very light or you may be there for a while
Can't imagine the queuing traffic would be best pleased too.
I have seen this situation in real life. I was the third vehicle behind an artic. As it went over the brow of a hill I could see there was a car stopped in front waiting to turn right. The artic hammered on the brakes, locked wheels and looked like it's never stop in time. The car stopped waiting to turn right was obviously keeping his eyes open and accelerated away as the lorry came over the hill wheels squealing. I was very impressed! Can't imagine the queuing traffic would be best pleased too.
I elected to take a SAC after getting caught at 36MPH in a 30MPH zone shortly after passing my driving test; being a new driver I imagined a SP30 would have affected my insurance somewhat heavily, so from that point of view the course was welcomed.
I wasn’t looking forward to what I expected to be a four hour lecture, however to the contrary I actually enjoyed the course. Most of what was taught I already knew – helped by having recently taken a driving test so the Highway Code was fresh in my mind; although it was astonishing how clueless the majority were to basic road rules.
For the parts I wasn’t as clued up on I found it interesting. The course was taken by two ex-traffic Police officers with a good sense of humour which alleviated the boring parts. If I had the option again I would definitely take the course.
I wasn’t looking forward to what I expected to be a four hour lecture, however to the contrary I actually enjoyed the course. Most of what was taught I already knew – helped by having recently taken a driving test so the Highway Code was fresh in my mind; although it was astonishing how clueless the majority were to basic road rules.
For the parts I wasn’t as clued up on I found it interesting. The course was taken by two ex-traffic Police officers with a good sense of humour which alleviated the boring parts. If I had the option again I would definitely take the course.
alock said:
eatcustard said:
Any education has to be worth it.
That's not accurate if the 'facts' are loaded so those being taught make inappropriate assumptions.The classic example in a speed awareness course is when they talk about the likelihood of someone dying. What you are typically taught is: At 30mph you have a 20% chance of being killed, while at 40mph there was an 80% chance of death.
They rely on the fact that the average person is not able to take this raw data and apply it in the appropriate way. They want you to draw conclusions from it that are not justified.
It is based on data from a 1979 Ashton and Mackay scientific paper. Pedestrian impact safety of cars has made massive improvements since then. I don't know whether modern cars change the numbers to make the gap wider or smaller. Unfortunately the course doesn't say so everyone is just left poorly educated.
Additionally they are relying on most people equating survival statistics at 30mph and 40mph impacts with the common speed limits of 30mph and 40mph. If you want to use these statistics to justify encouraging people to stick to speed limits you need more data. As an example, what is the average impact speed of a fatal crash in 30mph and 40mph limits? I want to see the data for fatality numbers against cruising speed delta to the speed limit 10 seconds before the crash, i.e. were they above or below the limit before starting their emergency braking.
Take the example of someone cruising at 60mph in a 60mph limit who then emergency brakes for an impact speed of 40mph which results in a fatality. This statistic makes up part of the 80% of 40mph collisions that are fatal and is used on the course to encourage people to stick to 30mph limits.
stargazer30 said:
When I did mine the course wasn't that bad, I did learn a little. As said the really scary bit was the audience' general lack of awareness of even the basic stuff like what's the NSL on a single/dual CW!
Still I wish I'd took my mates bet and showed up dressed as the stig
I wish you had gone dressed as the stig too.Still I wish I'd took my mates bet and showed up dressed as the stig
It would be very amusing to read the pissed-off thread you start complaining about the instructor telling you to fu!k off and you got 3 points and a £100 fine or indeed being sent straight to the magistrates.
Yes,can you please take your mate's advice in future
Edited by tapereel on Monday 27th July 20:34
ging84 said:
tr7v8 said:
Dunno what the ?? is for. The first I was bang to rights in a 40 limit at 47. I learnt a lot about signage, other peoples lack of knowledge of speed limits & also that TV police enforce 30MPH limits at 32MPH! The second was 5 years later in a defunct contraflow at Avonmouth for 57 in a 50. Avoiding some old boy who was wandering all over the place. In contraflows I set the cruise for 55 on the GPS & stay there. Obviously in getting away I notched it up a bit too high!
All you learned there is that people lie to strangers just as easily in person as they do onlineB
okgo said:
Caught doing 70 on the M25 when apparently there was a 60 limit in place? Didn't even notice to be honest.
What are these awareness things like? Is it a day off work? If I don't do that is it just 3 pointer for that sort of speed do you think?
I cant really be doing with taking time off working f
king about somewhere for a whole day if that is what it is, rather just take a small hit and get on with things.
If you have been invited to a course the plain fact is you need oneWhat are these awareness things like? Is it a day off work? If I don't do that is it just 3 pointer for that sort of speed do you think?
I cant really be doing with taking time off working f
king about somewhere for a whole day if that is what it is, rather just take a small hit and get on with things.Actually I would say the range of offences that the people in my group were huge, and some far worse than others.
Mine is fairly trivial, another guys was also fairly trivial, but one girl got done doing nearly 90 on a DC and her reason was that someone was 'chasing' her, and that it wasn't her fault. Mind blowing.
Mine is fairly trivial, another guys was also fairly trivial, but one girl got done doing nearly 90 on a DC and her reason was that someone was 'chasing' her, and that it wasn't her fault. Mind blowing.
okgo said:
Actually I would say the range of offences that the people in my group were huge, and some far worse than others.
Mine is fairly trivial, another guys was also fairly trivial, but one girl got done doing nearly 90 on a DC and her reason was that someone was 'chasing' her, and that it wasn't her fault. Mind blowing.
I don't agree that that makes the range of offences huge. I certainly can't convince myself that 86 on a DC is materially worse than 36 in a 30.Mine is fairly trivial, another guys was also fairly trivial, but one girl got done doing nearly 90 on a DC and her reason was that someone was 'chasing' her, and that it wasn't her fault. Mind blowing.
I suspect you are exhibiting what everyone there feels. Perhaps along the lines of "I didn't really do anything wrong, was unlucky to get caught and I'll just sit through the course which is for everyone else, not really me"?
Bert
okgo said:
Mine is fairly trivial, another guys was also fairly trivial, but one girl got done doing nearly 90 on a DC and her reason was that someone was 'chasing' her, and that it wasn't her fault.
That can be a valid defence.Cut-off in 70 is 86 so she's have been showing nearly 90 on the speedo.
Big E 118 said:
I thought it was best to use it as a "get out of jail free" card even though at that time the SAC was £25 more than the fine.
Same here - but at 79.50 it was 20 cheaper than the fine. (Bury, Lancs) For me it was a bargain - I'd pay a grand to keep 3 points off.I can honestly say that I quite enjoyed it and didn't regard it as a waste of time at all; sure there was propaganda type stuff but it was a useful refresher.
The two instructors (both driving instructors) were good fun and they did point out that Admiral now ask about SACs and to simply ask them if they were going to load the premium as a result of an SAC - if they did then simply take your business elsewhere.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff