Can a Housing Association do this?
Discussion
I own my current flat and have lived there for ~6 years. The flats in the block that I am in are all privately owned. The block opposite is owned by a Housing Association (Moat Homes) and is occupied by their tenants. I pay ground rent to Moat (£85 per month).
Since moving in, there has been a plethora of household items either flytipped in our communal car park (which my living room looks on to), or placed in the communal bin store which, on bin collection day the bin men have to remove to get the bins out (fair enough) and then leave outside the bin store in the same communal car park.
If I don't call the housing association/council the items will remain there for weeks without being touched. This week, a Fridge Freezer & 3 piece suite was fly tipped in the car park...
A day or so after it appeared I noticed this on the fridge freezer...
My question is, can they make all tenants pay for this? The area is open (not within secure gates etc) so anyone could just dump their stuff there. There is no CCTV.
Since moving in, there has been a plethora of household items either flytipped in our communal car park (which my living room looks on to), or placed in the communal bin store which, on bin collection day the bin men have to remove to get the bins out (fair enough) and then leave outside the bin store in the same communal car park.
If I don't call the housing association/council the items will remain there for weeks without being touched. This week, a Fridge Freezer & 3 piece suite was fly tipped in the car park...
A day or so after it appeared I noticed this on the fridge freezer...
My question is, can they make all tenants pay for this? The area is open (not within secure gates etc) so anyone could just dump their stuff there. There is no CCTV.
Edited by Avidfanofstuff on Thursday 21st May 09:50
Avidfanofstuff said:
I own my current flat and have lived there for ~6 years. The flats in the block that I am in are all privately owned.
I pay ground rent to Moat (£85 per month).
No, you don't. You - and all other leaseholders - pay a service charge (£85/mo for your flat, others may be more or less), which may well include a (probably negligible) element of ground rent, but which mainly pays for the maintenance and upkeep of all the common parts of the estate. ALL flats - whether owner-occupied or let - will pay a service charge. In the case of let flats, the landlord pays it, whether the landlord is the HA or the private owner of an individual flat.I pay ground rent to Moat (£85 per month).
Avidfanofstuff said:
My question is, can they make all tenants pay for this?
All leaseholders, yes. It's one of the things that the service charge is for.If you owned your own house and garden, and somebody unknown (might be a neighbour, might be your kids, might be somebody else entirely) dumped a sofa in your drive, who would be responsible for disposal of it? You. There's no real difference. Because this "drive" is shared by various households, the cost is shared amongst all the households, and responsibility is taken on by the people you employ (through the service charge) to maintain the common areas. The only difference between the owner-occupied and let flats is that the tenants don't much care, because their rent doesn't change to reflect increases in the service charge - whether their landlord is the HA or a private owner.
The fact that the freeholder and management company are the same organisation, or that they're social landlords of half the flats, is irrelevant. The hat they're wearing here is that of management company, who you employ through your service charge to maintain the estate.
Avidfanofstuff said:
I pay ground rent to Moat (£85 per month).
In which case Moat is the freeholder. It's not clear who manages your block. I suspect it's also Moat so you will be paying a general service charge to them too. You will need to look at your lease to find out whether a specific charge for each removal of fly-tipped rubbish can be added or whether Moat should be sucking it up as part of the general charge (which may well rise next year of it is a persistent problem). Moat is quite entitled to increase it for the next financial year. I suspect that is what the notice is intimating.If your block is all owner-occupiers it wouldn't surprise me to find that you'll end up bearing a greater proportion of the financial burden than those who only pay rent in the rest of the estate.
wait till the blocks get older and you get the bills for re-roofing, communal area refurbs and all the other stuff that has to be done.
I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
austinsmirk said:
wait till the blocks get older and you get the bills for re-roofing, communal area refurbs and all the other stuff that has to be done.
I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
LVT's .... Bane of my life !I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
TooMany2cvs said:
All leaseholders, yes. It's one of the things that the service charge is for.
If you owned your own house and garden, and somebody unknown (might be a neighbour, might be your kids, might be somebody else entirely) dumped a sofa in your drive, who would be responsible for disposal of it? You. There's no real difference. Because this "drive" is shared by various households, the cost is shared amongst all the households, and responsibility is taken on by the people you employ (through the service charge) to maintain the common areas. The only difference between the owner-occupied and let flats is that the tenants don't much care, because their rent doesn't change to reflect increases in the service charge - whether their landlord is the HA or a private owner.
The fact that the freeholder and management company are the same organisation, or that they're social landlords of half the flats, is irrelevant. The hat they're wearing here is that of management company, who you employ through your service charge to maintain the estate.
^^^^ agree, I have several leasehold flats, two with HA managing and one where the leaseholders, me have taken over the management of the block. With more and more leasehold developments taking in social housing tenants, buying leasehold flats is now a No, No. for me.If you owned your own house and garden, and somebody unknown (might be a neighbour, might be your kids, might be somebody else entirely) dumped a sofa in your drive, who would be responsible for disposal of it? You. There's no real difference. Because this "drive" is shared by various households, the cost is shared amongst all the households, and responsibility is taken on by the people you employ (through the service charge) to maintain the common areas. The only difference between the owner-occupied and let flats is that the tenants don't much care, because their rent doesn't change to reflect increases in the service charge - whether their landlord is the HA or a private owner.
The fact that the freeholder and management company are the same organisation, or that they're social landlords of half the flats, is irrelevant. The hat they're wearing here is that of management company, who you employ through your service charge to maintain the estate.
Legislation is covered by the Landlord & Tenants Act 1985, with Section 20 & 21 of particular interest for leaseholders.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/70/conten...
austinsmirk said:
wait till the blocks get older and you get the bills for re-roofing, communal area refurbs and all the other stuff that has to be done.
I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
The problem is the £200 they pay someone to clear the junk out suddenly becomes £500 after they add an admin charge.I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
A friend used to own a flat where the management company would regularly impose charges for door locks that broke, maintenance of communal areas etc. One problem they had was the bin store was not locked, so every tom dick and harry off the street was dumping stuff in them - sofas, fridges etc, which tenants then got charged to clear, after complaints the tenants got a bill for fitting locks to the store, which was then broken in to and set on fire.. repeat until fade..
The charges were anything from £20 in the the hundreds, which was over the top given the number of residents - they were picking off thousands for things that really cost hundreds at the most.
I often wonder how much the LA contribute to the problem. Years ago,we had no fly tipping and councils only too willing to collect most household large items free of charge. Then came the idea (whose was it, I'd suggest Maggie is possibly a good candidate), that only the basic council services were free ,and all others had to be paid for. Then came the increase in fly tipping. And as efforts to curb it have to become more sophisticated, then the cost has risen. Our street was a prize example . Few years ago we had a thriving residents association with a few problems to solve, mostly down to the unsocial element. Every time a council property became empty, the front garden would become a dumping ground for anything unwanted. We had a meeting with council head of housing maintenance who daily sent out a team to clear front gardens . It tied up a wagon and a team daily, to bring back a full wagon, to find the garden they'd cleared yesterday was again full . As an experiment, a skip was placed one day a week in certain positions in the street. This was filled, but the volume fly tipped decreased rapidly in other locations.
Then again ,we had the marvellous council logic that anything brought in in a car( estate or otherwise) was household, anything in a van trade. Some councils acted sensible and licensed domestic stuff brought in in vans.Most didn't. So Id suspect traders bought an old large shed of an estate and used that to dump trade waste.
Then again ,we had the marvellous council logic that anything brought in in a car( estate or otherwise) was household, anything in a van trade. Some councils acted sensible and licensed domestic stuff brought in in vans.Most didn't. So Id suspect traders bought an old large shed of an estate and used that to dump trade waste.
Who me said:
Then came the idea (whose was it, I'd suggest Maggie is possibly a good candidate), that only the basic council services were free ,and all others had to be paid for.
EVERYTHING councils do is paid for. The only difference is whether it's paid for out of tax revenue, or if it's paid for at the point of use.BTW, a quarter of a century and four prime ministers (two from each of the big parties) after she left office, blaming Maggie for everything is a bit stale and just makes you look like you've got a chip on your shoulder.
Thank you for all of the replies. In particular this one...
TooMany2cvs said:
All leaseholders, yes. It's one of the things that the service charge is for.
If you owned your own house and garden, and somebody unknown (might be a neighbour, might be your kids, might be somebody else entirely) dumped a sofa in your drive, who would be responsible for disposal of it? You. There's no real difference. Because this "drive" is shared by various households, the cost is shared amongst all the households, and responsibility is taken on by the people you employ (through the service charge) to maintain the common areas. The only difference between the owner-occupied and let flats is that the tenants don't much care, because their rent doesn't change to reflect increases in the service charge - whether their landlord is the HA or a private owner.
The fact that the freeholder and management company are the same organisation, or that they're social landlords of half the flats, is irrelevant. The hat they're wearing here is that of management company, who you employ through your service charge to maintain the estate.
I will admit that I was seeing this from an incorrect and very naive angle. Thank you for taking the time to explain the situation. The management company are coming to see me in the next few weeks to discuss options of dealing with the recurring issue (maybe with the use of some CCTV) so it's good that they are willing to discuss it with a view to helping. Will see how it goes. If you owned your own house and garden, and somebody unknown (might be a neighbour, might be your kids, might be somebody else entirely) dumped a sofa in your drive, who would be responsible for disposal of it? You. There's no real difference. Because this "drive" is shared by various households, the cost is shared amongst all the households, and responsibility is taken on by the people you employ (through the service charge) to maintain the common areas. The only difference between the owner-occupied and let flats is that the tenants don't much care, because their rent doesn't change to reflect increases in the service charge - whether their landlord is the HA or a private owner.
The fact that the freeholder and management company are the same organisation, or that they're social landlords of half the flats, is irrelevant. The hat they're wearing here is that of management company, who you employ through your service charge to maintain the estate.
austinsmirk said:
wait till the blocks get older and you get the bills for re-roofing, communal area refurbs and all the other stuff that has to be done.
I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
My friend's a landlord and owns an ex council flat which he rents out, the council replaced the windows in the block last year which cost him £36k for a 3 bed flat. He priced up exactly the same windows himself, he could have purchased and installed the same windows for £6k.I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
dacouch said:
austinsmirk said:
wait till the blocks get older and you get the bills for re-roofing, communal area refurbs and all the other stuff that has to be done.
I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
My friend's a landlord and owns an ex council flat which he rents out, the council replaced the windows in the block last year which cost him £36k for a 3 bed flat. He priced up exactly the same windows himself, he could have purchased and installed the same windows for £6k.I'd start saving now !
joking aside (I work for a HA) it won't be worth the admin effort spliting a bill by say 100 tnts, if it was £200 to tip.
although maybe you'll hit some jobsworth.
His percentage if it was 36k would indicate a lot more than just windows. If it was just windows, which I doubt, then he needs to start an LVT process.
roofer said:
There's no way he got charged 36k for that. If the entire block was refurbed, the cost of the entire works would have been divided between all dwellings.
His percentage if it was 36k would indicate a lot more than just windows. If it was just windows, which I doubt, then he needs to start an LVT process.
^^^^^agree, and if each flat/leaseholder's cost was over £250, then a Section 20 of the L & T Act 1985 would apply, that is management company would have been required to obtain 3 contractors quotes, with leaseholders voting on which contractor should carry out the works.His percentage if it was 36k would indicate a lot more than just windows. If it was just windows, which I doubt, then he needs to start an LVT process.
Baryonyx said:
That sounds like sharp practice. I'd move, soon.
Not really, it's pretty standard.If you are a leaseholder in a block or on an estate with a service charge then you pay a share of anything that needs doing whether it's replacing the roof or disposing of fly tipping.
Who else is going to pay if the residents don't?
roofer said:
There's no way he got charged 36k for that. If the entire block was refurbed, the cost of the entire works would have been divided between all dwellings.
His percentage if it was 36k would indicate a lot more than just windows. If it was just windows, which I doubt, then he needs to start an LVT process.
Same Council Southwark...His percentage if it was 36k would indicate a lot more than just windows. If it was just windows, which I doubt, then he needs to start an LVT process.
"Hi,
Can anyone give me advice on how to get the major works refund or challenge the costs?
My mum is a leaseholder in Southwark, they recently charged £37,000 to put in double glazing, paint and do some minor works at the front. Then they sent another letter adding an additional £4000 to the costs.
My mum has been ill with cancer prior to this happening and has no money to pay this or even strength to fight these charges, I am trying to sort it out as much as possible but I am unsure of the procedures.
I would be so grateful for any advice that you can provide me with.
Thank you so much"
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/forum/read/8/159759
There's plenty about similar overcharges on google for the same and other councils
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