Police car service schedule - BS?

Police car service schedule - BS?

Author
Discussion

FurryExocet

3,011 posts

180 months

Monday 25th May 2015
quotequote all
ging84 said:
How often do you actually have to do that? pursuits have to be fairly rare these days, especially ones which end in a hard stop, i can't imagine a traffic cop does that many outside of training.
We get quite a few, they come in fits and starts

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
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jith said:
My, how things must have changed over the years, and changed dramatically. To expel a few myths.

I don't know what make of car you're talking about Derek, but most cars of that era were not fitted with synthetic brake fluid. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere over a period of time. Due to constant operating pressure the water tends to settle behind the pistons in the brake calipers at each wheel. When the brakes are then used very hard as they are in the case of a traffic or pursuit car, the caliper temperatures rises to a point where the water boils in the calipers and you lose all operating pressure: pedal to the floor in a heart stopping instant!

It is utterly mandatory that brake fluid is changed very frequently in a car that is used for police purposes. I can assure you that would never have happened up here in that era. We serviced these cars almost to an aircraft standard. Having said that, the only experience I had of the Met was when visiting friends in London I was taken to a police garage where they had 2 Rover 3500S saloons with superchargers on them. They were utterly mental and were only used in serious pursuit situations, such as collecting the doughnuts before the shops shut.

This business of police cars being standard. Things doubtless have changed enormously over the years, because from the late sixties on absolutely every traffic and pursuit car was a special build. All the Fords, mostly Granadas and Capris, had a chassis plate fitted on the landing panel that stated they were Police Specials. The suspension and engine were heavily uprated as were the brakes. If the car arrived with standard brakes we would uprate them ourselves, as the standard pads and discs were simply not up to the job. Even the police Jags had vinyl upholstery and no electric windows and anything that was considered a luxury or unnecessary was not fitted.

As time went on cars in standard form became much quicker and the need for modification became less. But the issues of brakes is still a problem unless the police use top of the range cars such as the S and RS versions of Audis that are fitted with Brembo braking systems.

If what some of the BiB are stating on here is true about the mileage and state of modern vehicles it is a bloody disgrace and an accident waiting to happen over and over again. A sad endictment on government and police management policies.

J
Water doesn't 'settle behind the pistons' at all. Where do you get this stuff from? If that were true brake failure would occur in a very short time.

Water is gradually absorbed and stays evenly dispersed in the fluid. Over time as it builds up it lowers the boiling point of the fluid as a whole. Eventually that falls to a point where the fluid can boil under heavy braking leading to incidental failure.

The water content is quite easily monitored with a refractometer and shouldn't need changing more than every two years in the UK under any reasonable circumstances.

berlintaxi

8,535 posts

172 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
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If a 10 year old car still smelled like new I would be concerned, phthalates don't take that long to vent out, rest of the description reads as BS as well.

jith

2,752 posts

214 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
jith said:
My, how things must have changed over the years, and changed dramatically. To expel a few myths.

I don't know what make of car you're talking about Derek, but most cars of that era were not fitted with synthetic brake fluid. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere over a period of time. Due to constant operating pressure the water tends to settle behind the pistons in the brake calipers at each wheel. When the brakes are then used very hard as they are in the case of a traffic or pursuit car, the caliper temperatures rises to a point where the water boils in the calipers and you lose all operating pressure: pedal to the floor in a heart stopping instant!

It is utterly mandatory that brake fluid is changed very frequently in a car that is used for police purposes. I can assure you that would never have happened up here in that era. We serviced these cars almost to an aircraft standard. Having said that, the only experience I had of the Met was when visiting friends in London I was taken to a police garage where they had 2 Rover 3500S saloons with superchargers on them. They were utterly mental and were only used in serious pursuit situations, such as collecting the doughnuts before the shops shut.

This business of police cars being standard. Things doubtless have changed enormously over the years, because from the late sixties on absolutely every traffic and pursuit car was a special build. All the Fords, mostly Granadas and Capris, had a chassis plate fitted on the landing panel that stated they were Police Specials. The suspension and engine were heavily uprated as were the brakes. If the car arrived with standard brakes we would uprate them ourselves, as the standard pads and discs were simply not up to the job. Even the police Jags had vinyl upholstery and no electric windows and anything that was considered a luxury or unnecessary was not fitted.

As time went on cars in standard form became much quicker and the need for modification became less. But the issues of brakes is still a problem unless the police use top of the range cars such as the S and RS versions of Audis that are fitted with Brembo braking systems.

If what some of the BiB are stating on here is true about the mileage and state of modern vehicles it is a bloody disgrace and an accident waiting to happen over and over again. A sad endictment on government and police management policies.

J
Water doesn't 'settle behind the pistons' at all. Where do you get this stuff from? If that were true brake failure would occur in a very short time.

Water is gradually absorbed and stays evenly dispersed in the fluid. Over time as it builds up it lowers the boiling point of the fluid as a whole. Eventually that falls to a point where the fluid can boil under heavy braking leading to incidental failure.

The water content is quite easily monitored with a refractometer and shouldn't need changing more than every two years in the UK under any reasonable circumstances.
Where do I get this stuff from? Only around 44 years as a development engineer working on just about every vehicle imaginable, including police vehicles.

Read my post properly. I said, "Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere over a period of time." When it does this the water content in the fluid is greater in the calipers due to the constant fluctuating pressure cause by on/off braking. If you strip a caliper that has done a high mileage and has been hard used you will discover a ring of corrosion where the water in the fluid has concentrated immediately behind the seal. This effect is much greater in vehicles that are driven harder and subjected to extreme braking on a regular basis.

There is little or no point in monitoring water content in brake fluid as it is a foregone conclusion that it will be there. The concept of changing the fluid on a regular basis vastly outweighs the cost in terms of vehicle safety. Derek's post about the consequences of not doing so prove that 100%.

You haven't worked on police vehicles, have you? On these vehicles there are no "reasonable circumstances".

J

BertBert

18,954 posts

210 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
So I'd like to propose some alternative theories as even with your 44 years, the physics behind what you say seems flawed.

There is no obvious mechanism for the water content dissolved in the brake fluid to be greater just behind the piston. There is no greater change of pressure there than anywhere else in the system. Please explain why you think that is so.

What does happen at that end of the system is heat transfer from the brakepad/brakedisk interface. I would find corrosion from hot "wet" brake fluid to be a much better argument. The water vapour appearing would corrode the caliper.

I'm also interested in the water ingress. How does that occur? Through the m/c reservoir which is very slightly vented to the open air. How does the "hard use" of police cars accelerate the rate of water absorption?

Bert

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
jith said:
If you strip a caliper that has done a high mileage and has been hard used you will discover a ring of corrosion where the water in the fluid has concentrated immediately behind the seal. This effect is much greater in vehicles that are driven harder and subjected to extreme braking on a regular basis.
Really? Where does the required oxygen come from?!

BertBert

18,954 posts

210 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
Steam?

matchmaker

8,463 posts

199 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
silentbrown said:
jith said:
This business of police cars being standard. Things doubtless have changed enormously over the years, because from the late sixties on absolutely every traffic and pursuit car was a special build. All the Fords, mostly Granadas and Capris, had a chassis plate fitted on the landing panel that stated they were Police Specials. The suspension and engine were heavily uprated as were the brakes
Police spec parts for some cars are quite sought-after. Pretty sure that we had a police spec gearbox in the Mk1 Triumph 2000 racecar some years back.
I remember having Rover and Triumph parts manuals many years ago.There were definately parts listed for police spec cars. IIRC, one was a heavy duty gearbox for the P6B Rover 3500S.

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
jith said:
Where do I get this stuff from? Only around 44 years as a development engineer working on just about every vehicle imaginable, including police vehicles.

Read my post properly. I said, "Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere over a period of time." When it does this the water content in the fluid is greater in the calipers due to the constant fluctuating pressure cause by on/off braking. If you strip a caliper that has done a high mileage and has been hard used you will discover a ring of corrosion where the water in the fluid has concentrated immediately behind the seal. This effect is much greater in vehicles that are driven harder and subjected to extreme braking on a regular basis.

There is little or no point in monitoring water content in brake fluid as it is a foregone conclusion that it will be there. The concept of changing the fluid on a regular basis vastly outweighs the cost in terms of vehicle safety. Derek's post about the consequences of not doing so prove that 100%.

You haven't worked on police vehicles, have you? On these vehicles there are no "reasonable circumstances".

J
The water content will be absorbed throughout the fluid. The corrosion you mention is caused by the fluid, with its inherent water content and indeed the corrosion inhibitors themselves, as they degrade with heat, use and time. Brake fluid will corrode copper brake pipes given time, without effective inhibitors, water itself wouldn't. Another reason why it's changed frequently.

The pressure in the system is the same throughout, in the callipers, pipes, cylinders, you name it. There is no earthly reason why water would precipitate, even if that where possible, in the callipers as opposed to anywhere else.

Of course, is you're talking about about a silicone fluid, then the water might stay in there in droplets but, as those fluids aren't hygroscopic the water could only be introduced through sloppy maintenance so I think that's best disregarded.

The point about monitoring the moisture content, and therefore the boiling point of the fluid is that the boiling point will fall in proportion to the moisture content. The boiling point of the fluid is the issue. It is relatively easy to predict the %age of water content at which the boiling point will produce a risk of failure. It is just as easy to predict how quickly the moisture content will build up. A quick and easy test would confirm at any point, just where you were in the process.

Indeed manufacturers will be able to tell you, for given conditions, what the boiling point will be at any particular level of water content, and the rate that that content will build. Yes, you could just change the fluid on a far too regular basis but surely you see that actually understanding what is happening might be beneficial? In all honesty, you don't seem to at the moment.

I take your last comment to mean that the standard of police driving is not what some would like us to believe, because there is no way brakes need to be abused to the extent that you imply. Neither is the maintenance from what I can glean.

Look, there's plenty of research been done, nothing secret or mystical here, it's just chemistry. Why not do some research yourself?




Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 26th May 21:10

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
matchmaker said:
silentbrown said:
jith said:
This business of police cars being standard. Things doubtless have changed enormously over the years, because from the late sixties on absolutely every traffic and pursuit car was a special build. All the Fords, mostly Granadas and Capris, had a chassis plate fitted on the landing panel that stated they were Police Specials. The suspension and engine were heavily uprated as were the brakes
Police spec parts for some cars are quite sought-after. Pretty sure that we had a police spec gearbox in the Mk1 Triumph 2000 racecar some years back.
I remember having Rover and Triumph parts manuals many years ago.There were definately parts listed for police spec cars. IIRC, one was a heavy duty gearbox for the P6B Rover 3500S.
Reverse gears on Rover P6's were knackered in no time with the amount of reversing they did on the motorways -never made the 20 miles that Leyland guaranteed

jith

2,752 posts

214 months

Tuesday 26th May 2015
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
jith said:
Where do I get this stuff from? Only around 44 years as a development engineer working on just about every vehicle imaginable, including police vehicles.

Read my post properly. I said, "Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere over a period of time." When it does this the water content in the fluid is greater in the calipers due to the constant fluctuating pressure cause by on/off braking. If you strip a caliper that has done a high mileage and has been hard used you will discover a ring of corrosion where the water in the fluid has concentrated immediately behind the seal. This effect is much greater in vehicles that are driven harder and subjected to extreme braking on a regular basis.

There is little or no point in monitoring water content in brake fluid as it is a foregone conclusion that it will be there. The concept of changing the fluid on a regular basis vastly outweighs the cost in terms of vehicle safety. Derek's post about the consequences of not doing so prove that 100%.

You haven't worked on police vehicles, have you? On these vehicles there are no "reasonable circumstances".

J
The water content will be absorbed throughout the fluid. The corrosion you mention is caused by the fluid, with its inherent water content and indeed the corrosion inhibitors themselves, as they degrade with heat, use and time. Brake fluid will corrode copper brake pipes given time, without effective inhibitors, water itself wouldn't. Another reason why it's changed frequently.

The pressure in the system is the same throughout, in the callipers, pipes, cylinders, you name it. There is no earthly reason why water would precipitate, even if that where possible, in the callipers as opposed to anywhere else.

Of course, is you're talking about about a silicone fluid, then the water might stay in there in droplets but, as those fluids aren't hygroscopic the water could only be introduced through sloppy maintenance so I think that's best disregarded.

The point about monitoring the moisture content, and therefore the boiling point of the fluid is that the boiling point will fall in proportion to the moisture content. The boiling point of the fluid is the issue. It is relatively easy to predict the %age of water content at which the boiling point will produce a risk of failure. It is just as easy to predict how quickly the moisture content will build up. A quick and easy test would confirm at any point, just where you were in the process.

Indeed manufacturers will be able to tell you, for given conditions, what the boiling point will be at any particular level of water content, and the rate that that content will build. Yes, you could just change the fluid on a far too regular basis but surely you see that actually understanding what is happening might be beneficial? In all honesty, you don't seem to at the moment.

I take your last comment to mean that the standard of police driving is not what some would like us to believe, because there is no way brakes need to be abused to the extent that you imply. Neither is the maintenance from what I can glean.

Look, there's plenty of research been done, nothing secret or mystical here, it's just chemistry. Why not do some research yourself?




Edited by REALIST123 on Tuesday 26th May 21:10
Quite clearly you want to be seen as, or indeed are, a pedantic smart arse, so first off, why don't you learn to spell caliper properly.

Of course, in harmony with many others on here, you are anonymous. We don't know what you are or what you do, or if you are indeed qualified to argue with myself or anyone else with similar experience; whereas I am an open book and many on here know me and are my customers. If you doubt or question my abilities ask their opinion. If you really did know what you were talking about, you would realise it's a damn sight more than just chemistry. It takes years of experience based on observation, trial and error and knowing that what you have developed works, and why it works.

The corrosion at the inside of the caliper immediately behind the piston is NOT caused by brake fluid; it is caused by the water content in the fluid due to the fact that it hasn't been changed often enough. This has been demonstrated for decades now. Trying to argue about this is utterly stupid and pointless, but in true PH style granted. On modern high performance braking systems running synthetic fluid I have found no internal corrosion whatever.

My experience on police vehicles has demonstrated many times that the manufacturers most definitely do not build these cars to take the kind of punishment that is required when they are operational with the police. Why should they? Only a tiny percentage of vehicles manufactured go to the police.

Your remark about the police standard of driving and how they should not abuse the brakes is your conclusion, not mine. It demonstrates once again your ignorance of what is required in a police vehicle. There are situations on a daily basis where a police driver has to stand on the brakes out of necessity. That is not abuse, it is part of the working day; or maybe you would have them sail on into another car or a brick wall just so they can say they didn't abuse their brakes?

I have no time for this because I am seriously busy right now, so this is my last word. You blunder on if it makes you feel better or superior or whatever. I'll continue doing what I know works.

J

wildcat45

8,056 posts

188 months

Wednesday 27th May 2015
quotequote all
I have a contact who is a good friend of the man who may or may not have been driven around in this Rover. He's been sent the ad link so maybe we will find out what it was used for in NI

One thing springs to mind. If it was transport for anyone high profile in the province you'd have thought it would have had more than a degree of protection fitted.

guindilias

5,245 posts

119 months

Wednesday 27th May 2015
quotequote all
Aye, as I mentioned,it would normally be fitted with bulletproof windows, blast plates in the doors and underneath, etc - the cars weigh about as much as a minibus!

focusxr5

328 posts

115 months

Wednesday 27th May 2015
quotequote all
When I was a Panda Commander I knew that I would never buy an ex-Police car unless it was an advanced car (i.e traffic or firearms) or an advanced driver training car. Now I am an advanced driver I have narrowed it down to advanced training cars only. Never in a million years would I buy an ex operational car. We had the last of our S60 T5's right up until last year and it was properly shagged. Sometimes the situation dictates that the car is driven hard from cold but aside from that the interiors are beyond saving. In fact, there was one of our T5's that I physically couldn't drive as I'm a fairly short chap and the seat was stuck at the bottom of it's vertical adjustment. I physically couldn't see over the steering wheel.

wildcat45

8,056 posts

188 months

Wednesday 27th May 2015
quotequote all
guindilias said:
Aye, as I mentioned,it would normally be fitted with bulletproof windows, blast plates in the doors and underneath, etc - the cars weigh about as much as a minibus!
I somehow missed your earlier post., sorry.

I was once waiting for a cab at the Palace of Westminster and got chatting to a couple of boys who had an armoured Range Rover L322. They were telling me it was exceedingly heavy.

The army had a lightly armoured MK2 Mondeo when I was visiting them in Girdwood once. I seem to remember the windows didn't open.

Edited by wildcat45 on Thursday 28th May 00:09

guindilias

5,245 posts

119 months

Wednesday 27th May 2015
quotequote all
Nope, no opening windows!
One of the senior fellas in question was a friend of my father, and they would come round for dinner and drink. We'd walk him down the drive to the (waiting there all night) car, and I remember trying to close the door once he was inside - weighed an absolute tonne.
I jokingly asked one of the "Minders" how many shots from a 9mm Browning it would take to get through the window - he part-joking, part serious, said "Enough that we'd probably have been able to cut you in half with pistol fire before you even got anywhere close to breaking through!".
I didn't ask any more stupid questions...eek

BertBert

18,954 posts

210 months

Thursday 28th May 2015
quotequote all
I have no axe to grind here and know that you are clever, experienced and well respected. I apologise in advance for what might be seen as a personal attack. It's not meant to be but the limitations of the written word hinders me.

So with respect I do find it strange that you are so aggressive in your arguments just because two of us have disagreed with your version of the problems of water in brake fluid. It might be details but with respect (yes actually) you have been wrong on this thread. Surely details are super important.

So specifically you said that water pools behind pistons. I know it doesnt. The other poster knows it doesnt and from your re-telling of events in the quote below it looks like you know it doesn't too.

So perhaps a non angry, non self righteous reply either saying yes you are right I didn't express myself correctly, or actually you are not right as you have not considered a,b and c. Might be helpful.

And in the spirit of friendly ph'ness I won't say what I actually think of the "don't you know who I ams" of this world, but in my view they don't do themselves any favours. In Ph matters of technical debate I prefer using my paltry cse failures in physics, chemistry and law.

I am trying to argue the point about the water in brake fluid and my objection to your style objecitevly. But I have failed and am the poorer for it.
Bert

jith said:
Quite clearly you want to be seen as, or indeed are, a pedantic smart arse, so first off, why don't you learn to spell caliper properly.

Of course, in harmony with many others on here, you are anonymous. We don't know what you are or what you do, or if you are indeed qualified to argue with myself or anyone else with similar experience; whereas I am an open book and many on here know me and are my customers. If you doubt or question my abilities ask their opinion. If you really did know what you were talking about, you would realise it's a damn sight more than just chemistry. It takes years of experience based on observation, trial and error and knowing that what you have developed works, and why it works.

The corrosion at the inside of the caliper immediately behind the piston is NOT caused by brake fluid; it is caused by the water content in the fluid due to the fact that it hasn't been changed often enough. This has been demonstrated for decades now. Trying to argue about this is utterly stupid and pointless, but in true PH style granted. On modern high performance braking systems running synthetic fluid I have found no internal corrosion whatever.

My experience on police vehicles has demonstrated many times that the manufacturers most definitely do not build these cars to take the kind of punishment that is required when they are operational with the police. Why should they? Only a tiny percentage of vehicles manufactured go to the police.

jith

2,752 posts

214 months

Thursday 28th May 2015
quotequote all
BertBert said:
I have no axe to grind here and know that you are clever, experienced and well respected. I apologise in advance for what might be seen as a personal attack. It's not meant to be but the limitations of the written word hinders me.

So with respect I do find it strange that you are so aggressive in your arguments just because two of us have disagreed with your version of the problems of water in brake fluid. It might be details but with respect (yes actually) you have been wrong on this thread. Surely details are super important.

So specifically you said that water pools behind pistons. I know it doesnt. The other poster knows it doesnt and from your re-telling of events in the quote below it looks like you know it doesn't too.

So perhaps a non angry, non self righteous reply either saying yes you are right I didn't express myself correctly, or actually you are not right as you have not considered a,b and c. Might be helpful.

And in the spirit of friendly ph'ness I won't say what I actually think of the "don't you know who I ams" of this world, but in my view they don't do themselves any favours. In Ph matters of technical debate I prefer using my paltry cse failures in physics, chemistry and law.

I am trying to argue the point about the water in brake fluid and my objection to your style objecitevly. But I have failed and am the poorer for it.
Bert

jith said:
Quite clearly you want to be seen as, or indeed are, a pedantic smart arse, so first off, why don't you learn to spell caliper properly.

Of course, in harmony with many others on here, you are anonymous. We don't know what you are or what you do, or if you are indeed qualified to argue with myself or anyone else with similar experience; whereas I am an open book and many on here know me and are my customers. If you doubt or question my abilities ask their opinion. If you really did know what you were talking about, you would realise it's a damn sight more than just chemistry. It takes years of experience based on observation, trial and error and knowing that what you have developed works, and why it works.

The corrosion at the inside of the caliper immediately behind the piston is NOT caused by brake fluid; it is caused by the water content in the fluid due to the fact that it hasn't been changed often enough. This has been demonstrated for decades now. Trying to argue about this is utterly stupid and pointless, but in true PH style granted. On modern high performance braking systems running synthetic fluid I have found no internal corrosion whatever.

My experience on police vehicles has demonstrated many times that the manufacturers most definitely do not build these cars to take the kind of punishment that is required when they are operational with the police. Why should they? Only a tiny percentage of vehicles manufactured go to the police.
Dear god, this is hard work Bert. I don't believe I'm sitting at home after a super PH curry night in Glasgow talking about.... you guessed it, cars!

My "aggressive" response wasn't aimed at you; it was directed at Realist, and it was simply a post defending myself against what I see to be trivial and unimportant, but I can see where it could be misunderstood by those devoid of the appropriate experience.

First off, where does it say anywhere in my posts that I claimed water "pools" behind the calipers. I'm sorry but that is just nonsense and I did not say that. Clearly I am going to have to explain this in greater detail so that it is fully understood.

In any hydraulic system the working pressure is determined by the back pressure. In other words when the brake pedal is at rest there is virtually no pressure in the system; when it is pressed the amount of pressure that terminates at the calipers fluctuates according to the external pressure on the brake pedal, which in turn is boosted by the servo. The harder and more regular the braking is, the higher the pressure and the greater the intervals of pressure on the termination points, i.e. the caliper seals.

When the fluid is contaminated with water the mixture is forced in between the seals and the caliper body. It is also forced in between the inside of the seal and the piston support groove. This occurs due to a combination of the fact that water is absolutely non-compressible and the seals are not designed to cope with water. Two things then happen. The corrosion on both sides of the seal starts to make the piston tight in the caliper and it closes the running clearance and the brakes run hot. In the case of a police vehicle they are worked far harder anyway and the combination of the two guarantees boiling the fluid immediately behind the caliper seals.

I am going to say this for the last time: it is the water content in the brake fluid that causes these problems, NOT the fluid. With regularly changed fluid in the system you do not get corrosion in the inside of the calipers.

To further explain this, today in the workshop we dropped the rear subframe assembly off an '89 XJS. This car has inboard brakes mounted to the diff casing. The car has been lying in storage for over a year and the brakes were seized solid. The seals in the rear caliper pistons were stuck absolutely solid to the bodies. There is no record of the fluid having been changed recently if ever. We see this all the time with older cars, and when the calipers are stripped they are usually scrap due to a ring of corrosion behind the seal at the point where it finally stuck. The corrosion is rust and, as you are doubtless aware, can only occur where there is water and oxygen.

Bert I have seen this so many times I could retire to Monaco if I had a fiver for every time. So perhaps you will now appreciate why it gets a little tiring when someone, particularly when they are anonymous, has a pop at you on the internet when all you are doing is offering an explanation for a technical situation based on your long life's experience.

By the way, how could you think me angry when I am quietly ruminating on my PH curry and making an effort like this in a reply?

"Do you know who I am?" Well Realist asked where I got it from, so I told him. I make no apologies for that.

Hopefully this is helpful, so no hard feelings, eh?

J