Car dealer refuses to refund £500 deposit...
Discussion
The lesson to be learned here is always leave the MINIMUM deposit you can get away with, whether you are buying a Bentley or a washing machine, in case things go tits up.
Why leave £500, when the dealer will accept 50?
Regarding this instance, I think the garage has been more than fair letting the OP put it towards another car within twelve months....
Why leave £500, when the dealer will accept 50?
Regarding this instance, I think the garage has been more than fair letting the OP put it towards another car within twelve months....
- The only time the vendor SHOULD return a deposit is if the buyer had genuinely had changed circumstances, for instance if his wife had been killed in an accident or other serious misfortune, (and he could prove it), then yes, the deposit should morally be returned.
Sheepshanks said:
In such circumstances them keeping the deposit becomes a penalty and that's generally not allowed.
Interesting. Does the "we keep the deposit" term make his contract unenforcable, then? Just checking the T's & C's on my (pending) order: "if you cancel the agreement... we will endeavour to sell the vehicle to another person... if it is not sold within a reasonable time we will sell it at auction... if our loss is less than your deposit we will refund the difference. If our loss is greater than your deposit you must pay us the difference within 7 days".
PoleDriver said:
Look at it from the other side!
If the dealer said to you "sorry I've sold the car, here's you deposit back" how would you feel?
In that case the would-be buyer could sue the dealer for whatever it cost him above £27,000 to get an identical or equivalent car.If the dealer said to you "sorry I've sold the car, here's you deposit back" how would you feel?
Wrt others who have asked, "What is the point of a deposit if the buyer can walk away without losing it?," the dealer's motivation is that a potential buyer's putting down a deposit tends to concentrate the would-be buyer's mind, it separates the wheat from the chaff (usually), and it makes the buyer "sticky" - less inclined than he would otherwise be to change his mind.
Those are all understandable reasons for a dealer to demand a deposit whilst knowing that, under some conditions, the failed buyer could potentially claim it back.
silentbrown said:
Sheepshanks said:
In such circumstances them keeping the deposit becomes a penalty and that's generally not allowed.
Interesting. Does the "we keep the deposit" term make his contract unenforcable, then? silentbrown said:
[
Just checking the T's & C's on my (pending) order: "if you cancel the agreement... we will endeavour to sell the vehicle to another person... if it is not sold within a reasonable time we will sell it at auction... if our loss is less than your deposit we will refund the difference. If our loss is greater than your deposit you must pay us the difference within 7 days".
I'd say you'd be in some difficulty there as that sets out the possible costs if you cancel.Just checking the T's & C's on my (pending) order: "if you cancel the agreement... we will endeavour to sell the vehicle to another person... if it is not sold within a reasonable time we will sell it at auction... if our loss is less than your deposit we will refund the difference. If our loss is greater than your deposit you must pay us the difference within 7 days".
These things are never black and white though. Ie, in that clause, what's a "reasonable time"?
Butter Face said:
andy_s said:
Butter Face said:
That is a good one and definitely the most commonly used! Amazing how many people find out they're getting made redundant on a Monday morning after buying a car on Saturday 
Buying a car or being sold a car...? Amongst the amazing number of people, I wonder how many came in off the street, said 'I want that one' and later reneged vs. those that wandered in, got persuaded and reneged?
It's a recognised characteristic, hence distance selling regs.
Not having a pop and maybe not the OP circumstance, but sometimes things are counter-intuitive. Although at £500 per changed mind after a good hard sell maybe lucrative after all...
Edited by andy_s on Sunday 31st May 22:58
PurpleMoonlight said:
The redress for either party for a breach of contract is the recovery of any loss incurred.
Anything else is a penalty and not enforceable.
Anything else is a penalty and not enforceable.
Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Sunday 31st May 14:04
Somebody on the Beavis thread who is a bit two faced said:
I'm pleased he lost.
Some hope for those of us with car parks and have to endure the selfish arrogant twunts on a daily basis.
Some hope for those of us with car parks and have to endure the selfish arrogant twunts on a daily basis.
If the dealer needs to show an actual loss then is not completely unreasonable to ask him for a refund the next day? He's not going to be able to show a loss until the car is sold.
Personally I'd have took them up on their credit it within 12 months, or I'd have asked for £250 back now to just draw a line under it and move on.
I also wouldn't go around telling too many you bullied a dealership into giving you £500 back if thats how this pans out, I wouldn't lend £20 to someone who's word obviously meant so little to them
Personally I'd have took them up on their credit it within 12 months, or I'd have asked for £250 back now to just draw a line under it and move on.
I also wouldn't go around telling too many you bullied a dealership into giving you £500 back if thats how this pans out, I wouldn't lend £20 to someone who's word obviously meant so little to them
I had a situation like this a year ago with a private seller.
Changed my mind 24hrs after placing a £500 deposit.
Phoned him,apologised profusely,he was pissed off.
I told him he had every right to keep the whole deposit but I would like
£250 back and as a gentleman I hoped he would consider the 50% refund.
He refunded the £250 for which I was very appreciative.
Changed my mind 24hrs after placing a £500 deposit.
Phoned him,apologised profusely,he was pissed off.
I told him he had every right to keep the whole deposit but I would like
£250 back and as a gentleman I hoped he would consider the 50% refund.
He refunded the £250 for which I was very appreciative.
Butter Face said:
That is a good one and definitely the most commonly used! Amazing how many people find out they're getting made redundant on a Monday morning after buying a car on Saturday
i did get made redundant 3 weeks after taking delivery of a car, i had no idea it was coming. the bank i worked for gave me double what i was entitled to as they hadn't followed the 90 days rules etc.i still managed to keep the car going and got a new job 3 months later.
i also know someone who left one job on a friday and got to the new one on a monday to find that the entire division he was going to work for was being closed down. luckily for him his old boss took him back.
it can happen, as you said though, probably less than it really does.
Sheepshanks said:
It can be - if it's a holding deposit.
However the OP signed an order form - so he's committed by the contract to purchase the vehicle. The dealer could enforce the contract in full and make him buy the vehicle.
What they've done is allowed him to withdraw from the contract. In such circumstances them keeping the deposit becomes a penalty and that's generally not allowed.
Here us a different POV. The contact is not breached. The contract allows the buyer to back out, not buy the goods and pay the deposit for the car for the privilege. So is that in fact a penalty for breach?However the OP signed an order form - so he's committed by the contract to purchase the vehicle. The dealer could enforce the contract in full and make him buy the vehicle.
What they've done is allowed him to withdraw from the contract. In such circumstances them keeping the deposit becomes a penalty and that's generally not allowed.
Bert
Sheepshanks said:
It can be - if it's a holding deposit.
However the OP signed an order form - so he's committed by the contract to purchase the vehicle. The dealer could enforce the contract in full and make him buy the vehicle.
What they've done is allowed him to withdraw from the contract. In such circumstances them keeping the deposit becomes a penalty and that's generally not allowed.
I do not believe that the dealer can 'make him buy the vehicle'. He can pursue damages for breach of contract, but he can't make the OP fulfil his contract. However the OP signed an order form - so he's committed by the contract to purchase the vehicle. The dealer could enforce the contract in full and make him buy the vehicle.
What they've done is allowed him to withdraw from the contract. In such circumstances them keeping the deposit becomes a penalty and that's generally not allowed.
Edited by balls-out on Monday 1st June 10:48
You viewed the car, took it off sale by signing a contract. Leaving a £500 deposit showed your commitment to the contract. The dealer doesn't have to justify anything to the OP, he may have to to a judge though.
Ask the dealer for the £500 as discount off the next time you buy a car from them.
Ask the dealer for the £500 as discount off the next time you buy a car from them.
It is interesting that so many posters views are based on the rigid black OR white terms of a deal, when in fact we all know that life is actually many shades of grey.
If the OP can demonstrate he is telling the truth, (which I fully accept he might not be), then I don't see why the dealership can't apply some common sense & refund all or half of the deposit.
Black & white views smack of jobs worth or "computer says no" to me.
If the OP can demonstrate he is telling the truth, (which I fully accept he might not be), then I don't see why the dealership can't apply some common sense & refund all or half of the deposit.
Black & white views smack of jobs worth or "computer says no" to me.
andy_s said:
Not really what I was getting at; I mean that sometimes employing sales technique (to close the deal, small deposit just now) can pressurise people into making decisions they regret later.
Amongst the amazing number of people, I wonder how many came in off the street, said 'I want that one' and later reneged vs. those that wandered in, got persuaded and reneged?
It's a recognised characteristic, hence distance selling regs.
That doesn't make any sense. The reverse is true, there's no pressure to enter into a contract when you're dealing remotely. Amongst the amazing number of people, I wonder how many came in off the street, said 'I want that one' and later reneged vs. those that wandered in, got persuaded and reneged?
It's a recognised characteristic, hence distance selling regs.
Distance Selling regs are about allow people to receive goods, examine them, and then return them if they decide they don't want them. They don't allow an order to be cancelled before you received the goods.
LoonR1 said:
Whilst I know everyone will be fully supportive of the OP and accuse the dealer of sharp practice and quote a load of legal stuff around this, what would happen if it was the other way round? How would we react with a thread like "I paid a deposit of £500 this week and the dealer has to returned it to me today, as he's sold the car to someone else"
Would everyone then claim that the deposit suddenly became a legally binding commitment to buy and sell?
I wont, the deposit is the dealers and the OP should walk away, it is a binding agreement to buy and if the deal goes wrong it is forfeited.Would everyone then claim that the deposit suddenly became a legally binding commitment to buy and sell?
If the imaginary scenario you described in the second part of you post was to come up I would say the dealer was in the wrong and the deposit is a binding agreement to sell.
Getragdogleg said:
LoonR1 said:
Whilst I know everyone will be fully supportive of the OP and accuse the dealer of sharp practice and quote a load of legal stuff around this, what would happen if it was the other way round? How would we react with a thread like "I paid a deposit of £500 this week and the dealer has to returned it to me today, as he's sold the car to someone else"
Would everyone then claim that the deposit suddenly became a legally binding commitment to buy and sell?
I wont, the deposit is the dealers and the OP should walk away, it is a binding agreement to buy and if the deal goes wrong it is forfeited.Would everyone then claim that the deposit suddenly became a legally binding commitment to buy and sell?
If the imaginary scenario you described in the second part of you post was to come up I would say the dealer was in the wrong and the deposit is a binding agreement to sell.
The problem with stuff like this is that without deposits having some meaning then it's pointless to even have them, which makes it very difficult for anyone to practically buy something remotely like this when they're satisfied with the information available and need it to be held for them until they can come down, acquire funds or whatever. The business of buying and selling cars practically needs deposits to function.
I look at this stuff very much from a good faith point of view. I've missed out on buying some things because I haven't been willing to put down a deposit, because I wasn't actually sure at the time of being asked. Consequently I've suffered, but can't really blame anyone else but myself. It's all very well imagining some twee fantasy world where everyone's word is their bond, and can be relied upon, but in reality people seem to find themselves "losing" their jobs overnight or whatever and reneging on deals.
It's quite likely the dealer didn't suffer a £500 loss, but one can only assume this. We/the OP don't know what efforts were put in following the acceptance of his deposit. Perhaps other interested parties were advised it was sold, or - as was stated above - perhaps there is a consequential loss in having to cancel arrangements to prepare it, or whatever.
Fundamentally though the OP agreed to and signed a contract that explicitly states the deposit is forfeiture in the event of a non-sale. If he didn't agree with those terms, irrespective of how strong they would prove to be in a court of Law, he had the opportunity to walk away. I don't think it's particularly fair to agree to T&Cs like this, then act like you had no knowledge of or respect for them.
I look at this stuff very much from a good faith point of view. I've missed out on buying some things because I haven't been willing to put down a deposit, because I wasn't actually sure at the time of being asked. Consequently I've suffered, but can't really blame anyone else but myself. It's all very well imagining some twee fantasy world where everyone's word is their bond, and can be relied upon, but in reality people seem to find themselves "losing" their jobs overnight or whatever and reneging on deals.
It's quite likely the dealer didn't suffer a £500 loss, but one can only assume this. We/the OP don't know what efforts were put in following the acceptance of his deposit. Perhaps other interested parties were advised it was sold, or - as was stated above - perhaps there is a consequential loss in having to cancel arrangements to prepare it, or whatever.
Fundamentally though the OP agreed to and signed a contract that explicitly states the deposit is forfeiture in the event of a non-sale. If he didn't agree with those terms, irrespective of how strong they would prove to be in a court of Law, he had the opportunity to walk away. I don't think it's particularly fair to agree to T&Cs like this, then act like you had no knowledge of or respect for them.
I was always under the (mis?)apprehension that once you signed a contract to purchase something and paid a deposit, technically you owned the item and what then existed was a debt between you and the vendor.
By the same token, the vendor cannot then sell the item to anyone else as he does not have clean title to it, having agreed a contract to sell to you and money having changed hands. The item will be released to the new owner on full payment being received by the vendor.
Does this no longer apply, or not apply to the purchase of cars.
By the same token, the vendor cannot then sell the item to anyone else as he does not have clean title to it, having agreed a contract to sell to you and money having changed hands. The item will be released to the new owner on full payment being received by the vendor.
Does this no longer apply, or not apply to the purchase of cars.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff