Non fault claim - affecting my insurance premiums

[ging84]

the motor insurance industry has been running at a loss for 20 odd years eh?
you really have drunk the kool aid

[98elise]

stuart313 said:

98elise said:

ikarl said:

It's ridiculous though.. Why should ayone be out of pocket by any amount when someone hits their car and fully admitted liability?!

Because the insurance company has evidence to show that someone who has been involved in accident (regardless of the fault), is more likely to be claiming again soon. Its not the accident they are concerned about, its what that says about your future risk/cost to them.

There will be some people involved who truly have not increased their risk, but that's what happens when insurance is based on risk groups than individual risk.

You see, this is obviously bks on the part of the insurance industry. If you are a claimer then you are perceived as an increased risk in their eyes, yet they tell you to report every accident to them no matter how small. Surely if you do a cash deal then you wont put a claim in which means you are statistically less likely to make a future claim, isn't this what they want.

You can't decide how big your next crash will be, or that the other party will be happy to deal in cash. Its just statistics and groups. Thats just how most insurance works. Bespoke insurance is avaiable but it won't be any cheaper otherwise thats what would dominate the market.

[BORN2bWILD]

LoonR1 said:

I'm right here on planet Earth and not quoting Unite's pet solicitors. Here's an independent review

http://www.towerswatson.com/en-GB/Insights/IC-Type...

Loads more if you google "motor insurance losses 20nn" pick a year, any year.

---

The link simply takes you to a company that has a USA based business which helps companies make even better profit, and you somehow twist this to suggest the insurance companies that rip us off are not making any profit, when clearly they are.

Propagander practices in this country by insurance companies using examples of false claims etc to deter honest claims and increase their profits further have actually been banned in USA by the way.

I explained how I helped a wheelchair bound 75 year old lady deal with insurance claim just this week as they were blatantly trying to rip her off, I have over 40 years direct hands on experience with insurance companies and have no time for them.

You even suggest repair shops rip THEM off? Clearly you do not have my experience as a qualified panel beater who has had own business and managed a bodyshop for a national chain of garages, which is probably why you talk out of your backside.

[LoonR1]

BORN2bWILD said:

LoonR1 said:

I'm right here on planet Earth and not quoting Unite's pet solicitors. Here's an independent review

http://www.towerswatson.com/en-GB/Insights/IC-Type...

Loads more if you google "motor insurance losses 20nn" pick a year, any year.

---

The link simply takes you to a company that has a USA based business which helps companies make even better profit, and you somehow twist this to suggest the insurance companies that rip us off are not making any profit, when clearly they are.

Propagander practices in this country by insurance companies using examples of false claims etc to deter honest claims and increase their profits further have actually been banned in USA by the way.

I explained how I helped a wheelchair bound 75 year old lady deal with insurance claim just this week as they were blatantly trying to rip her off, I have over 40 years direct hands on experience with insurance companies and have no time for them.

You even suggest repair shops rip THEM off? Clearly you do not have my experience as a qualified panel beater who has had own business and managed a bodyshop for a national chain of garages, which is probably why you talk out of your backside.

It's a report on UK Motor Insuramce, that's the title of the report. It's not difficult to work out the subject is it?

[LoonR1]

ging84 said:

the motor insurance industry has been running at a loss for 20 odd years eh?
you really have drunk the kool aid

Page 8 of 20

https://www.abi.org.uk/~/media/Files/Documents/Pub...

[BORN2bWILD]

Just an example of one of many reports in national newspapers regarding insurance companies and their profits.......




Hidden charges are allowing car insurance companies to boost their profits while passing on record premiums to loyal customers, a Money Mail investigation can reveal.

Our probe has discovered that hikes in little-known administrative fees have allowed insurers to rake in bumper profits.

But while insurers are pocketing this extra cash drivers have endured a 30 per cent increase in their premiums, with the average now £923 a year.

Insurers claim they are not benefiting from these hikes, which are to pay for steep rises in fraud, personal injury claims and damage caused by uninsured drivers.

But behind closed doors they are creaming off more from drivers through clandestine add-on charges.

For example, Admiral, which insures 2.8million cars in the UK, boosted its car insurance profits by 28  per cent in the first six months of this year.

Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-20...
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[gruffalo]

ging84 said:

the motor insurance industry has been running at a loss for 20 odd years eh?
you really have drunk the kool aid

No he is correct as you would expect.

Insurance companies do lose money on the car insurance side of their business but make more on other things like property.

Car insurance is a bit of a loss leader really.

[BORN2bWILD]

LoonR1 said:

It's a report on UK Motor Insuramce, that's the title of the report. It's not difficult to work out the subject is it?

---

It's not difficult to work out you do not have a clue what you are talking about... with all due respect.

[LoonR1]

BORN2bWILD said:

LoonR1 said:

It's a report on UK Motor Insuramce, that's the title of the report. It's not difficult to work out the subject is it?

---

It's not difficult to work out you do not have a clue what you are talking about... with all due respect.

You keep shouting loudly and maybe your opinion will be true after all. It isn't, but that shouldn't bother you.

[BORN2bWILD]

LoonR1 said:

You keep shouting loudly and maybe your opinion will be true after all. It isn't, but that shouldn't bother you.

---

Why is making valid points backed up with the facts and over 40 years experience dealing with insurance companies shouting?

You remind me of a famous Jack Nicholson line in a film: 'truth?.... you can't handle the truth'

[ikarl]

gruffalo said:

No he is correct as you would expect.

Insurance companies do lose money on the car insurance side of their business but make more on other things like property.

Car insurance is a bit of a loss leader really.

Not sure I understand the logic behind this..... I know why supermarkets have loss leaders, once you're in you'll buy all your weekly shopping etc, but is that the same with insurance? Really?

My home insurance has never been with the same co I insure my cars/bikes with, and without seeing something to back it up, I don't believe that there are millions of customers in the UK that have all their insurances under one roof, making it so beneficial to the companies to sell a loss leader.

So, Why don't companies just stop selling car insurance if it's such a loss leader? If their prices were cheaper for other policies, they would probably get many, many more customers for the policies where they make money

[LoonR1]

BORN2bWILD said:

LoonR1 said:

You keep shouting loudly and maybe your opinion will be true after all. It isn't, but that shouldn't bother you.

---

Why is making valid points backed up with the facts and over 40 years experience dealing with insurance companies shouting?

You remind me of a famous Jack Nicholson line in a film: 'truth?.... you can't handle the truth'

You deal with one small part of the insurance process, that being repairing the car. That does not make you an expert on the insurance market. I've been buying petrol for 30 years, I don't profess to understand the whole process form exploration, through refining amd then onto pump amd all points in between.

[LoonR1]

ikarl said:

Not sure I understand the logic behind this..... I know why supermarkets have loss leaders, once you're in you'll buy all your weekly shopping etc, but is that the same with insurance? Really?

My home insurance has never been with the same co I insure my cars/bikes with, and without seeing something to back it up, I don't believe that there are millions of customers in the UK that have all their insurances under one roof, making it so beneficial to the companies to sell a loss leader.

So, Why don't companies just stop selling car insurance if it's such a loss leader? If their prices were cheaper for other policies, they would probably get many, many more customers for the policies where they make money

1. It's difficult to walk away having lost money
2. There is a tipping point and everyone hopes it's next year. 2013 actually did turn an underwriting profit for the industry, but back to losses in 2014.
3. There is a gentleman's agreement that if you want to sell general insurance in the UK, then you will sell car insurance as part of that portfolio
4. There is some money to be made in bolt on products, but nowhere near the money that the panel beater would have you believe
5. Cross sell opportunities on profit making lines eg household, travel, health policies. This is limited though with the use of price comparison websites being the default option for purchasers.
6. The ego of the CEO will rarely allow them to accept defeat
7. If a lot do withdraw (by pricing themselves out of the market), then it effectively hands huge market share to their competitors and there is a view that once a certain critical mass has been achieved, that it will be profitable.

[BORN2bWILD]

LoonR1 said:

You deal with one small part of the insurance process, that being repairing the car. That does not make you an expert on the insurance market. I've been buying petrol for 30 years, I don't profess to understand the whole process form exploration, through refining amd then onto pump amd all points in between.

---

If you took the time to read what I have written then obviously I have not just had experience repairing cars.

But lets not allow the facts to get in the way of your opinion.

Apart from the above I have posted information and reports relating to insurance companies and their practices which you choose to ignore

[ikarl]

I know you're not talking for the whole industry Loon, but talk of Gentlemens Agreements don't sit right with me.

In a truly competitive environment these shouldn't exist. Basically you're saying that the insurance companies are in 'cahoots' to artificially keep insurance prices high.

[BORN2bWILD]

Analysis reveals car insurance companies are making huge profits and could reduce premiums
Leading personal injury law firm

The major car insurance companies are making huge profits that they could use to reduce premiums for drivers, according to an analysis of their latest accounts by Thompsons Solicitors, published online today (Monday 20 May) to coincide with a House of Commons Transport Select Committee hearing on the cost of motor insurance.

The leading personal injury law firm has examined the latest published financial information of the top five car insurers and found all of them increased their profits in 2012 – contrary to the impression they give of being victims of mass fraud claims and losing money.
Making it as hard as possible for people to make genuine claims

“Law firms are constantly accused of being ‘ambulance chasers’ by insurers and yet they have a vested interest in creating a sense of crisis and making it as hard as possible for people to make genuine claims,” said Tom Jones, Head of Policy and Public Affairs at Thompsons.

“The facts show the car insurance companies are making big and growing profits, and they are putting paying dividends to their shareholders ahead of reducing premiums. One major car insurer is making a £245m dividend payment for 2012, which could have funded an £81 premium reduction for each and every one of its three million customers.

“We accept a business is entitled to make a profit, but we believe it is unacceptable for us all to be running scared and for those who benefit from a captive market to heavily influence public policy.”
Thompsons Solicitors refuses to work for insurance companies

Thompsons Solicitors, which refuses to work for insurance companies, says the figures demonstrate the insurance industry has much to gain from Government reforms that undermine access to justice for genuine claimants.

[BORN2bWILD]

The key findings of the Thompsons analysis are:

Market leader Direct Line, which owns the Churchill brand, saw profits from car insurance rise last year to £262m (2011: £255m). It will be paying £101m in dividends to shareholders on June 11 – equivalent to £25 per policy holder.
Admiral made a profit from the UK car insurance market of £372.8m in 2012 - a 19% increase on the previous year. Its UK car insurance profits were actually higher than Admiral’s overall profit, due to losses in overseas markets. Admiral increased its total dividend pay-out to shareholders by 20% to £245m – equivalent to £81 per customer.
AVIVA does not give a separate profit figure for car insurance, but its 2012 annual report says: “Personal motor premiums increased by 3% to £1,164 million (2011 £1,126m) and we have nearly 2.5 million personal motor customers, an increase of over 250,000 since the start of 2012. We continue to deliver good profitability in personal (motor insurance) lines.”
AXA UK & Ireland, part of global French-owned group, does not publish separate accounts, but it issued a statement on 21 February saying: “Motor profitability improved in 2012, thanks to pricing and risk selection actions.” It said it expects ‘improved results in 2013’. AXA has been particularly active in lobbying the Government for reforms to deter claims.
Liverpool Victoria, the fifth largest car insurer, saw its profits rise 11% in 2012 to £29.5 (2011: £26.5m).

“The Transport Select Committee will be hearing representatives of the car insurance industry today arguing for more measures that would undermine access to justice for genuine claimants.
Insurance companies are about maximising profits

“They will present themselves as objective and concerned about motorists when in fact insurance companies are about maximising profits and do that by paying out as little as possible and charging as much as they can in premiums.

“It is absurd to suggest insurers are on the side of the motorist any more than big oil companies are. They are stirring up a debate about whiplash claims to divert attention from how much they profit from motorists. And they are being hypocritical because they have fuelled whiplash claims themselves by making millions* selling cases to law firms and cold calling accident victims to get them to settle cases cheaply.

[BORN2bWILD]

Just to further make my point, (and hopefully this will reach planet loon) this article was 3 months ago in the evening standard.....




Motor insurer Admiral served up a “Baked Alaska” as it suffered its first fall in annual profits since listing on the London Stock Exchange in 2004.

The company saw pre-tax profits drop 4% to £357 million after being hit by diving premiums in the UK market, where it insures 3.2 million vehicles.

This accounts for 81% of group turnover and 78% of its customers.

“Admiral’s 2014 was the year of the Baked Alaska — hot and cold in a single bite,” boss Henry Engelhardt said.

“The hot? Profits emerging from our international insurance businesses, in ConTe in Italy, and record profits at Rastreator and LeLynx, our price-comparison businesses in Spain and France.

“The cold? For the first time since we went public, Admiral did not post a record profit, but we still made a lot of money, had an enviable 52% return on equity and distributed 95% of our after-tax profits to our shareholders.”

[LoonR1]

ikarl said:

I know you're not talking for the whole industry Loon, but talk of Gentlemens Agreements don't sit right with me.

In a truly competitive environment these shouldn't exist. Basically you're saying that the insurance companies are in 'cahoots' to artificially keep insurance prices high.

Quite the opposite. The "Gentleman's Agreement" is with insurers and the government. The government asks that all insurers offer car insurance as part of their portfolio. Given this means a large number of insurers, that would, by definition, mean more competition and potentially lower prices.

[LoonR1]

BORN2bWILD said:

Just to further make my point, (and hopefully this will reach planet loon) this article was 3 months ago in the evening standard.....




Motor insurer Admiral served up a “Baked Alaska” as it suffered its first fall in annual profits since listing on the London Stock Exchange in 2004.

The company saw pre-tax profits drop 4% to £357 million after being hit by diving premiums in the UK market, where it insures 3.2 million vehicles.

This accounts for 81% of group turnover and 78% of its customers.

“Admiral’s 2014 was the year of the Baked Alaska — hot and cold in a single bite,” boss Henry Engelhardt said.

“The hot? Profits emerging from our international insurance businesses, in ConTe in Italy, and record profits at Rastreator and LeLynx, our price-comparison businesses in Spain and France.

“The cold? For the first time since we went public, Admiral did not post a record profit, but we still made a lot of money, had an enviable 52% return on equity and distributed 95% of our after-tax profits to our shareholders.”

I've no idea what point you're making. Admiral offer far more than UK car insurance, as stated in the article. They also own confused.com which makes a lot of money. You can post snippet articles until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't alter the fact that since 1993, the industry, as a whole,has not made any underwriting profit on car insurance.

Why don't you explain what your experience of the past 40 years is then. To me it seems like you're a repairer amd not much else.