SOR customer service issues
Discussion
Hi all, wondering if you can help with some advice on the following.
In a nutshell I use an SOR company to sell some of my personal cars based on the periphery of the M25 without naming and shaming just yet. They advertised my car at the agreed SOR price and commission was agreed. The car was sold after approx 1.5 months and the purchaser collected the car, drove it home and on the way home the engine management light came on. I had driven the car for circa 7-9 months without the slightest issue before that point. Fine this may be bad luck some may say - agreed.
They bought the car back to their dealership and did some works which cost £280 odd, nothing too major. They delivered the car back to the purchaser at which point they paid me approx 80% of the monies and said the reminder would be paid once the buyer was happy. Given the 2-3 week period while this was all going on I agreed. Once the car was delivered back to the buyer all sorts of engine management lights etc came up and to cutt a long story short the dealership has had the car for almost 2 months while they have continued to do the works to rectify. Some may say on a used car this would be the end of the issue and it's the new owners issue from here onwards, but lets let that slide for a second.
Here is gets interesting. During the 2-3 weeks initially they never told me what was being done, why, how much it would cost and who would be accountable (new owner versus me the previous owner versus the dealership taking some of the fall for all the issues and delays). I had chased and chased and it has now become 2 months in total. Still no concrete answer from the dealership and no defainte costs of courstey to call/email me back after all the chasing to simply explaining what was happening and why. All of this is slowly leading up to me being worried the car would be handed over without confirmation to me on the costs of works or reason for them. I don't mind the costs (to a point), but more to manage my expectations. Nothing, all me chasing.
The car was handed over after I threatened to remove my other SOR from them, when magically I received some figures. Bare in mind this was a £40k sports car, not a Ferrari/hypercar etc) and the bill came to over £2,200 inc VAT!!! Surprise surprise the car was handed over without confirming to me as i had done in writing along with all of my other communication back to them. To spend £2k+ on a car and not inform the SOR seller is very poor in my opinion. Everything points to them handing the car over and then worrying about my costs, knowing I may not do anything more about it now the car has been handed over.
Now there is a bill of over £2k and my argument will be where is the customer service in explaining what was happening, why and how much the cost was. My opinion is they can't simply spend on MY car for the new purchaser WITHOUT consulting me. I appreciate things MAY have needed doing but thats my car and my funds they were holding on to. Its business courtesy and a lack of communication on their part.
The final straw came today when I called them and found out from the purchaser that they paid more for the car than I was charged. Ie they paid £X and I was told the car was sold for £X-£500!!! The commission they charged is seperate. Surely thats fraud?!
Thoughts on the above and what I should do?
In a nutshell I use an SOR company to sell some of my personal cars based on the periphery of the M25 without naming and shaming just yet. They advertised my car at the agreed SOR price and commission was agreed. The car was sold after approx 1.5 months and the purchaser collected the car, drove it home and on the way home the engine management light came on. I had driven the car for circa 7-9 months without the slightest issue before that point. Fine this may be bad luck some may say - agreed.
They bought the car back to their dealership and did some works which cost £280 odd, nothing too major. They delivered the car back to the purchaser at which point they paid me approx 80% of the monies and said the reminder would be paid once the buyer was happy. Given the 2-3 week period while this was all going on I agreed. Once the car was delivered back to the buyer all sorts of engine management lights etc came up and to cutt a long story short the dealership has had the car for almost 2 months while they have continued to do the works to rectify. Some may say on a used car this would be the end of the issue and it's the new owners issue from here onwards, but lets let that slide for a second.
Here is gets interesting. During the 2-3 weeks initially they never told me what was being done, why, how much it would cost and who would be accountable (new owner versus me the previous owner versus the dealership taking some of the fall for all the issues and delays). I had chased and chased and it has now become 2 months in total. Still no concrete answer from the dealership and no defainte costs of courstey to call/email me back after all the chasing to simply explaining what was happening and why. All of this is slowly leading up to me being worried the car would be handed over without confirmation to me on the costs of works or reason for them. I don't mind the costs (to a point), but more to manage my expectations. Nothing, all me chasing.
The car was handed over after I threatened to remove my other SOR from them, when magically I received some figures. Bare in mind this was a £40k sports car, not a Ferrari/hypercar etc) and the bill came to over £2,200 inc VAT!!! Surprise surprise the car was handed over without confirming to me as i had done in writing along with all of my other communication back to them. To spend £2k+ on a car and not inform the SOR seller is very poor in my opinion. Everything points to them handing the car over and then worrying about my costs, knowing I may not do anything more about it now the car has been handed over.
Now there is a bill of over £2k and my argument will be where is the customer service in explaining what was happening, why and how much the cost was. My opinion is they can't simply spend on MY car for the new purchaser WITHOUT consulting me. I appreciate things MAY have needed doing but thats my car and my funds they were holding on to. Its business courtesy and a lack of communication on their part.
The final straw came today when I called them and found out from the purchaser that they paid more for the car than I was charged. Ie they paid £X and I was told the car was sold for £X-£500!!! The commission they charged is seperate. Surely thats fraud?!
Thoughts on the above and what I should do?
Edited by JiggyJaggy on Monday 29th June 18:00
I'm a specialist sportscar dealer and I avoid SOR for precisely reasons like this. Lesson to be learned. If a dealer thinks your car is such a hot prospect he should buy it from you!
SOR is a flawed business model and should be avoided wherever possible.
On the rare occasions I do offer SOR (normally only for customers that have bought the same car from me before) the cars are sold as seen so the sale can be treated as an enhanced private sale ie the car has been looked at and checked over by me and has my name to it but the buyer is clear there is no warranty. If in the event I did get an issue I would try my best to sort it out within my (modest) fee.
If these dealers want to make the big bucks they need to get some kahunas and start buying stock.
SOR is a flawed business model and should be avoided wherever possible.
On the rare occasions I do offer SOR (normally only for customers that have bought the same car from me before) the cars are sold as seen so the sale can be treated as an enhanced private sale ie the car has been looked at and checked over by me and has my name to it but the buyer is clear there is no warranty. If in the event I did get an issue I would try my best to sort it out within my (modest) fee.
If these dealers want to make the big bucks they need to get some kahunas and start buying stock.
Sale or return can indeed be fraught with problems and risk. We have an entire section of our website given over to the subject http://www.911virgin.com/content/saleorreturn/
Where SOR works well is in situations where it is difficult to establish a value. As a dealer you assume the worst when buying but hope for the best when selling and sometimes you are surprised. SOR allows the owner of the car to benefit from that enhanced value.
With cars which are easier to value then you have to question how SOR is going to work. The dealer still needs to make a profit. They still have all the expenses of premises, advertising, insurance, staff, utilities, and the umpteen other expenses which arrive in the post. If you advertise cars as SOR and somehow try to avoid liability then a buyer will kick you in the nuts price-wise. It's worth no more than a private sale. So where does the dealers margin come from ?
In your case you are caught in the middle I'm afraid. Setting aside whether the dealer is telling the truth for a moment once a deposit has been taken you are locked in. If someone comes along with a better deal you can't take it, the buyer has bought the car.
You talk about the new buyer (of hours by the sound of it) having to shoulder the cost of repairs. Why? There is no question that the fault was present at the time of purchase so I'm afraid it's down to you / the dealer. When you left your car with the dealer you wanted to pal up with him and benefit from his advantages but I'm afraid when you live by the sword you have to die by it as well. You haven't sold that car as a private seller, you've asked a dealer to sell it for you as a trade sale to try and maximise return. You must therefore adhere to the rules of selling cars as a dealer.
In some cases, particularly with things like engine check lights it can be very difficult to pin point faults. We've had to spend fortunes over the years. Car came in ok. Drove on test drives ok, but when the customer had the car something went wrong. That's our problem.
Had you sold the car as an outright sale to the dealer then it would be his problem not yours, as it is I'm afraid the dealer was merely working for a fixed commission by the sound of things. Any prep work was / is down to you subject to what the paperwork said.
I can understand your frustration and doubt about the dealers integrity but ultimately if you aren't sure about them you shouldn't leave your cars with them. It's like leaving them a briefcase full of cash. Once the car is sold you've kissed goodbye regardless of whether the dealer pays you or not.
I appreciate my words might sound harsh and I'm sorry for that. I've been criticised on here in the past for pointing out the potential pitfalls of SOR. People tell me it works well and they make more money, the problem is I also see the darker side of it and the victims who tend to be largely quiet through embarrassment or the misguided hope of seeing their money back if they give the dealer a bit more time.
You need to address the matter of the higher price with the dealer and also see invoices for the work.
Henry
edited to say - you talk about it being "your" car when the work was being done. It wasn't, it was the new owners car purchased from a dealer.
Where SOR works well is in situations where it is difficult to establish a value. As a dealer you assume the worst when buying but hope for the best when selling and sometimes you are surprised. SOR allows the owner of the car to benefit from that enhanced value.
With cars which are easier to value then you have to question how SOR is going to work. The dealer still needs to make a profit. They still have all the expenses of premises, advertising, insurance, staff, utilities, and the umpteen other expenses which arrive in the post. If you advertise cars as SOR and somehow try to avoid liability then a buyer will kick you in the nuts price-wise. It's worth no more than a private sale. So where does the dealers margin come from ?
In your case you are caught in the middle I'm afraid. Setting aside whether the dealer is telling the truth for a moment once a deposit has been taken you are locked in. If someone comes along with a better deal you can't take it, the buyer has bought the car.
You talk about the new buyer (of hours by the sound of it) having to shoulder the cost of repairs. Why? There is no question that the fault was present at the time of purchase so I'm afraid it's down to you / the dealer. When you left your car with the dealer you wanted to pal up with him and benefit from his advantages but I'm afraid when you live by the sword you have to die by it as well. You haven't sold that car as a private seller, you've asked a dealer to sell it for you as a trade sale to try and maximise return. You must therefore adhere to the rules of selling cars as a dealer.
In some cases, particularly with things like engine check lights it can be very difficult to pin point faults. We've had to spend fortunes over the years. Car came in ok. Drove on test drives ok, but when the customer had the car something went wrong. That's our problem.
Had you sold the car as an outright sale to the dealer then it would be his problem not yours, as it is I'm afraid the dealer was merely working for a fixed commission by the sound of things. Any prep work was / is down to you subject to what the paperwork said.
I can understand your frustration and doubt about the dealers integrity but ultimately if you aren't sure about them you shouldn't leave your cars with them. It's like leaving them a briefcase full of cash. Once the car is sold you've kissed goodbye regardless of whether the dealer pays you or not.
I appreciate my words might sound harsh and I'm sorry for that. I've been criticised on here in the past for pointing out the potential pitfalls of SOR. People tell me it works well and they make more money, the problem is I also see the darker side of it and the victims who tend to be largely quiet through embarrassment or the misguided hope of seeing their money back if they give the dealer a bit more time.
You need to address the matter of the higher price with the dealer and also see invoices for the work.
Henry
edited to say - you talk about it being "your" car when the work was being done. It wasn't, it was the new owners car purchased from a dealer.
Edited by Henry-F on Tuesday 30th June 09:24
@ Chartljr: The SOR contract doesn't say anything. It is simply a sheet which documents the car, price, mileage etc etc and the commission amount.
@ Fridaypassion: It was a good car at a decent price, not so much a bargain. It was an R8 so Im assuming not enough of a margin for them to buy it and sell it on.
@Henry-F: We may have spoken a long time ago, a friend had a 911 (930) Cabriolet to sell and you kindly gave some good advice from memory. Thank you. I guess the thinking behind an SOR is that the dealership adds their value by inspecting the car and using their marketing and warranty/finance options to help with the sale of the car, ir to "enhance" the sale as someone stated.
Also my issue is not with the works needed doing to the car or how much, its the fact they didn't have the decency to tell me about the works or update me at any stage until they handed the car over and tried to stuff me
UPDATE:
Just found out that although they stated to me the car was sold for £40,500 I have spoken to the new owner who confirmed they purchased the car for £42,273 plus £1,000 warranty which in my eyes is fraud of £773! They have categorically stated that they have sold the car for £40,500 in writing. Quite worrying and this has really annoyed me.
@ Fridaypassion: It was a good car at a decent price, not so much a bargain. It was an R8 so Im assuming not enough of a margin for them to buy it and sell it on.
@Henry-F: We may have spoken a long time ago, a friend had a 911 (930) Cabriolet to sell and you kindly gave some good advice from memory. Thank you. I guess the thinking behind an SOR is that the dealership adds their value by inspecting the car and using their marketing and warranty/finance options to help with the sale of the car, ir to "enhance" the sale as someone stated.
Also my issue is not with the works needed doing to the car or how much, its the fact they didn't have the decency to tell me about the works or update me at any stage until they handed the car over and tried to stuff me
UPDATE:
Just found out that although they stated to me the car was sold for £40,500 I have spoken to the new owner who confirmed they purchased the car for £42,273 plus £1,000 warranty which in my eyes is fraud of £773! They have categorically stated that they have sold the car for £40,500 in writing. Quite worrying and this has really annoyed me.
IMHO, you'd have to be a total fruit loop to sell a car through a dealer on SOR, You've only got to search through the forums here to see far to many tales of my car was sold and i ended up with no car and no money as the dealer went bust... there is a local place here who seem to do it every 2-3 years going bust with out paying for cars.. and yet still people do it with them. I amazed the guy running the firms hasnt ended up in the severn with a set of concrete wellies yet...
JiggyJaggy said:
Just found out that although they stated to me the car was sold for £40,500 I have spoken to the new owner who confirmed they purchased the car for £42,273 plus £1,000 warranty which in my eyes is fraud of £773! They have categorically stated that they have sold the car for £40,500 in writing. Quite worrying and this has really annoyed me.
£42,273 plus a £1000 warranty means they kept £1773 of your money.Henry-F said:
Sale or return can indeed be fraught with problems and risk. We have an entire section of our website given over to the subject http://www.911virgin.com/content/saleorreturn/
Where SOR works well is in situations where it is difficult to establish a value. As a dealer you assume the worst when buying but hope for the best when selling and sometimes you are surprised. SOR allows the owner of the car to benefit from that enhanced value.
With cars which are easier to value then you have to question how SOR is going to work. The dealer still needs to make a profit. They still have all the expenses of premises, advertising, insurance, staff, utilities, and the umpteen other expenses which arrive in the post. If you advertise cars as SOR and somehow try to avoid liability then a buyer will kick you in the nuts price-wise. It's worth no more than a private sale. So where does the dealers margin come from ?
In your case you are caught in the middle I'm afraid. Setting aside whether the dealer is telling the truth for a moment once a deposit has been taken you are locked in. If someone comes along with a better deal you can't take it, the buyer has bought the car.
You talk about the new buyer (of hours by the sound of it) having to shoulder the cost of repairs. Why? There is no question that the fault was present at the time of purchase so I'm afraid it's down to you / the dealer. When you left your car with the dealer you wanted to pal up with him and benefit from his advantages but I'm afraid when you live by the sword you have to die by it as well. You haven't sold that car as a private seller, you've asked a dealer to sell it for you as a trade sale to try and maximise return. You must therefore adhere to the rules of selling cars as a dealer.
In some cases, particularly with things like engine check lights it can be very difficult to pin point faults. We've had to spend fortunes over the years. Car came in ok. Drove on test drives ok, but when the customer had the car something went wrong. That's our problem.
Had you sold the car as an outright sale to the dealer then it would be his problem not yours, as it is I'm afraid the dealer was merely working for a fixed commission by the sound of things. Any prep work was / is down to you subject to what the paperwork said.
I can understand your frustration and doubt about the dealers integrity but ultimately if you aren't sure about them you shouldn't leave your cars with them. It's like leaving them a briefcase full of cash. Once the car is sold you've kissed goodbye regardless of whether the dealer pays you or not.
I appreciate my words might sound harsh and I'm sorry for that. I've been criticised on here in the past for pointing out the potential pitfalls of SOR. People tell me it works well and they make more money, the problem is I also see the darker side of it and the victims who tend to be largely quiet through embarrassment or the misguided hope of seeing their money back if they give the dealer a bit more time.
You need to address the matter of the higher price with the dealer and also see invoices for the work.
Henry
edited to say - you talk about it being "your" car when the work was being done. It wasn't, it was the new owners car purchased from a dealer.
An excellent post.Where SOR works well is in situations where it is difficult to establish a value. As a dealer you assume the worst when buying but hope for the best when selling and sometimes you are surprised. SOR allows the owner of the car to benefit from that enhanced value.
With cars which are easier to value then you have to question how SOR is going to work. The dealer still needs to make a profit. They still have all the expenses of premises, advertising, insurance, staff, utilities, and the umpteen other expenses which arrive in the post. If you advertise cars as SOR and somehow try to avoid liability then a buyer will kick you in the nuts price-wise. It's worth no more than a private sale. So where does the dealers margin come from ?
In your case you are caught in the middle I'm afraid. Setting aside whether the dealer is telling the truth for a moment once a deposit has been taken you are locked in. If someone comes along with a better deal you can't take it, the buyer has bought the car.
You talk about the new buyer (of hours by the sound of it) having to shoulder the cost of repairs. Why? There is no question that the fault was present at the time of purchase so I'm afraid it's down to you / the dealer. When you left your car with the dealer you wanted to pal up with him and benefit from his advantages but I'm afraid when you live by the sword you have to die by it as well. You haven't sold that car as a private seller, you've asked a dealer to sell it for you as a trade sale to try and maximise return. You must therefore adhere to the rules of selling cars as a dealer.
In some cases, particularly with things like engine check lights it can be very difficult to pin point faults. We've had to spend fortunes over the years. Car came in ok. Drove on test drives ok, but when the customer had the car something went wrong. That's our problem.
Had you sold the car as an outright sale to the dealer then it would be his problem not yours, as it is I'm afraid the dealer was merely working for a fixed commission by the sound of things. Any prep work was / is down to you subject to what the paperwork said.
I can understand your frustration and doubt about the dealers integrity but ultimately if you aren't sure about them you shouldn't leave your cars with them. It's like leaving them a briefcase full of cash. Once the car is sold you've kissed goodbye regardless of whether the dealer pays you or not.
I appreciate my words might sound harsh and I'm sorry for that. I've been criticised on here in the past for pointing out the potential pitfalls of SOR. People tell me it works well and they make more money, the problem is I also see the darker side of it and the victims who tend to be largely quiet through embarrassment or the misguided hope of seeing their money back if they give the dealer a bit more time.
You need to address the matter of the higher price with the dealer and also see invoices for the work.
Henry
edited to say - you talk about it being "your" car when the work was being done. It wasn't, it was the new owners car purchased from a dealer.
Edited by Henry-F on Tuesday 30th June 09:24
Several years ago I sold my 1991 Virage through a dealer,it took quite some time to sell and I accepted 10% less than was originally agreed,no problems with the car,it was just proving difficult to find a buyer.
However it saved me the hassle of selling privately so I was content to accept.
The OPs experience is different and I would also be annoyed if I was not being advised appropriately.
Customer relationship with the seller was obviously not deemed to be a priority.
JustinP1 said:
£42,273 plus a £1000 warranty means they kept £1773 of your money.
Sorry typo. I meant to write they sold the car for £41,273 hence they kept an additional £773. Ridiculous none the less. Lets see if they fess up in the next few days before I take the proof to the MD and my lawyer/small claims court. Graham said:
IMHO, you'd have to be a total fruit loop to sell a car through a dealer on SOR, You've only got to search through the forums here to see far to many tales of my car was sold and i ended up with no car and no money as the dealer went bust... there is a local place here who seem to do it every 2-3 years going bust with out paying for cars.. and yet still people do it with them. I amazed the guy running the firms hasnt ended up in the severn with a set of concrete wellies yet...
Selling wise they seemed OK. I had used them for my SOR's for the last 2-3 years and they have generally had good feedback up til now. PH5121 said:
If they sold a warranty with the car should they not bear some of the costs for the remedial works? Cake and eat it springs to mind!
They did not tell me they provide the car with a 3 month warranty nor did they til me openly that they sold a warranty to the new purchaser. Seemed another way to stuff me for over £2k of works... the saga continues and they seem more and more unscrupulous. If they cant turn a profit buying in an Audi R8 and selling retail they should shut up shop immediately and go home and never return! If I can buy in 10-30k Lotus cars and make it work they should be able to do it with an R8. If they are a proper dealer they should have stock funding available to buy anything they want even if they dont have the 45k in the bank in £££.
Good post from Mr 911-Virgin another top tip is use a specialist. Someone like 911Virgin will do a better job of dealing with Porsche customers just like I would hope I would be one of the go to indies for Lotus.
Good post from Mr 911-Virgin another top tip is use a specialist. Someone like 911Virgin will do a better job of dealing with Porsche customers just like I would hope I would be one of the go to indies for Lotus.
How much of your money do they still have?
I'd be thinking about a formal request for the full amount back, backed up with legal action. I'm not entirely certain in any case that you would be the person who needs to pick up the bill regardless, it depends on your contract.
Playing the scenario out, if you were to sue for your monies in full, plus the £773, it would be up to them to prove that contractually you were liable for the deductions made.
With the £773 issue, and the fact that a warranty was sold, from the outset they look unscrupulous, which would affect the credibility of any other claims.
I'd be thinking about a formal request for the full amount back, backed up with legal action. I'm not entirely certain in any case that you would be the person who needs to pick up the bill regardless, it depends on your contract.
Playing the scenario out, if you were to sue for your monies in full, plus the £773, it would be up to them to prove that contractually you were liable for the deductions made.
With the £773 issue, and the fact that a warranty was sold, from the outset they look unscrupulous, which would affect the credibility of any other claims.
They have just over £4,200 of the original monies and I now have an email from the purchaser confirming the actual amount they purchased the car for, compared to the price they claimed to have sold my car for.
I'm waiting for they reply first before I take a formal step. Happy to name and shame once I confirm what they have done and can prove it.
I'm waiting for they reply first before I take a formal step. Happy to name and shame once I confirm what they have done and can prove it.
PH won't be happy for you to do this. No naming & shaming - it's the rules.JiggyJaggy said:
Surely there must be a way of warning oh PH'ers to prevent them being de-frauded also?
Not on PH.By all means find other websites to publish your thoughts on, but don't be surprised if their owners take the same stance, or if it's your own site you get a call from the dealership's lawyers.
JiggyJaggy said:
They have just over £4,200 of the original monies and I now have an email from the purchaser confirming the actual amount they purchased the car for, compared to the price they claimed to have sold my car for.
I'm waiting for they reply first before I take a formal step. Happy to name and shame once I confirm what they have done and can prove it.
Have you got a written contract with them?I'm waiting for they reply first before I take a formal step. Happy to name and shame once I confirm what they have done and can prove it.
Does it say they keep 20% of your money?
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