Is it illegal to wedge a fuel pump open

[Ilovejapcrap]

Breadvan72 said:

Ilovejapcrap said:

leigh1050 said:

I use my filler cap to hold the latch open.

Have done for years, last week a college was in work van and amazed by this !

Seriously how can people not think to do that !

You got a whole college in your work van? Was this some sort of Guinness Book of Records gig?

Yes

[ModernAndy]

Is there any difference between either the way the fuel intake system is designed on a HGV or the fuel nozzles/pumps used at filling stations especially for HGVs when compared to those used by cars/vans?

[MrsMiggins]

Don't know about HGV design, but a pump specified for hgv use typically has a higher flow rate and a bigger nozzle to accommodate.

[fttm]

Usually pump 3/400 ltrs a day into my truck which is hardly strenuous , why anyone who has seen the consequences of leaving a pump unattended would want to "wedge one open " beggars belief , never take the piss out of dumb ass Americans again if you follow this practice .

[MrsMiggins]

What consequences? Care to elaborate?

Are you saying that the other countries which allow the latch to be used are being irresponsible?

[Hugo a Gogo]

fttm said:

Usually pump 3/400 ltrs a day into my truck which is hardly strenuous , why anyone who has seen the consequences of leaving a pump unattended would want to "wedge one open " beggars belief , never take the piss out of dumb ass Americans again if you follow this practice .

everyone in Germany does it

decent sized country with lots of drivers, lots of through traffic

I've never heard of an incident, not to say they've never happened

[Devil2575]

MrsMiggins said:

What consequences? Care to elaborate?

Are you saying that the other countries which allow the latch to be used are being irresponsible?

Do you really need the consequences spelling out?

It's not a matter of irresponsible or not it's a matter of risk and the the likelyhood of a hazardous event occuring.

Removing the latch removes the potential for human error in one aspect of the filling operation.

[Devil2575]

Hugo a Gogo said:

everyone in Germany does it

decent sized country with lots of drivers, lots of through traffic

I've never heard of an incident, not to say they've never happened

Are you likely to have heard of an incident?

[Hugo a Gogo]

an exploding petrol station? probably if it happened anywhere in Germany

a big fuel spill? probably if it happened anywhere local (25 million people in Rhine/Ruhr area)

example: a camper van set a petrol station on fire, it was big news in all the german papers, websites etc (elec. fault in the van)

Edited by Hugo a Gogo on Monday 5th October 10:04

[Devil2575]

Hugo a Gogo said:

an exploding petrol station? probably if it happened anywhere in Germany

a big fuel spill? probably if it happened anywhere local (25 million people in Rhine/Ruhr area)

example: a camper van set a petrol station on fire, it was big news in all the german papers, websites etc (elec. fault in the van)

Edited by Hugo a Gogo on Monday 5th October 10:04

Exploding petrol station is the worst case scenario and would likely result in multiple fatalities so yes.

Do you regularly read the German papers/websites?

[Pints]

Devil2575 said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

an exploding petrol station? probably if it happened anywhere in Germany

a big fuel spill? probably if it happened anywhere local (25 million people in Rhine/Ruhr area)

example: a camper van set a petrol station on fire, it was big news in all the german papers, websites etc (elec. fault in the van)

Edited by Hugo a Gogo on Monday 5th October 10:04

Exploding petrol station is the worst case scenario and would likely result in multiple fatalities so yes.

Do you regularly read the German papers/websites?

Having checked Hugo's profile, I'd suggest he most certainly reads German papers and websites.

[Devil2575]

Pints said:

Having checked Hugo's profile, I'd suggest he most certainly reads German papers and websites.

So it would seem

[CarsAreBad2572]

Devil2575 said:

Exploding petrol station is the worst case scenario and would likely result in multiple fatalities so yes.

Do you regularly read the German papers/websites?

If using a match, pound coin, etc as a substitute latch is as dangerous as you claim, then presumably, going by your usual logic, you're in favour of making it a criminal offence? Since they video drivers anyway, it's easy for petrol stations to send the footage of the Latch Criminal to the police (it's not like they're already drowning in silly footage from st-stirring cyclists' compo cams). Maybe force petrol stations to send the footage by law, just to make sure.

Clearly, when something that makes life easier for millions of drivers theoretically results in a dangerous outcome in a very small number of cases, then the best response is always to ban it outright, rather than to try to find ways of preventing it from leading to the dangerous outcome. Insulate the pump from static shocks? No! Some other innovation? Absolutely not! No initiative must ever be used. Always ban, ban, ban. We don't want to be in any way helpful to drivers, because they should be cycling instead.

The great thing is that nearly everything drivers do can be labelled as "dangerous", in that it will probably result in some sort of injury to someone if done enough millions of times. Then it's an easy home run: say it needs to be banned ("if it saves just one life..."), and characterise anyone who disagrees as callous and not thinking about children enough. Then move onto something else. Wait, I've got one! Parking on slopes is "dangerous" because the driver might leave the handbrake off. While we could solve this problem with technology, it would be much more fun to ban parking on slopes altogether...

[Hugo a Gogo]

Devil2575 said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

an exploding petrol station? probably if it happened anywhere in Germany

a big fuel spill? probably if it happened anywhere local (25 million people in Rhine/Ruhr area)

example: a camper van set a petrol station on fire, it was big news in all the german papers, websites etc (elec. fault in the van)

Edited by Hugo a Gogo on Monday 5th October 10:04

Exploding petrol station is the worst case scenario and would likely result in multiple fatalities so yes.

Do you regularly read the German papers/websites?

yes I do

filled up my car tonight, left it filling while I cleaned the windows - clicked the lock open tab, nobody died

[Devil2575]

Hugo a Gogo said:

yes I do

filled up my car tonight, left it filling while I cleaned the windows - clicked the lock open tab, nobody died

I once drank a whole bottle of scotch whiskey. I didn't die therefore it is safe.

So presumably you rely on the auto cut-off function to prevent overfilling?

[Devil2575]

CarsAreBad2572 said:

Devil2575 said:

Exploding petrol station is the worst case scenario and would likely result in multiple fatalities so yes.

Do you regularly read the German papers/websites?

If using a match, pound coin, etc as a substitute latch is as dangerous as you claim, then presumably, going by your usual logic, you're in favour of making it a criminal offence? Since they video drivers anyway, it's easy for petrol stations to send the footage of the Latch Criminal to the police (it's not like they're already drowning in silly footage from st-stirring cyclists' compo cams). Maybe force petrol stations to send the footage by law, just to make sure.

Clearly, when something that makes life easier for millions of drivers theoretically results in a dangerous outcome in a very small number of cases, then the best response is always to ban it outright, rather than to try to find ways of preventing it from leading to the dangerous outcome. Insulate the pump from static shocks? No! Some other innovation? Absolutely not! No initiative must ever be used. Always ban, ban, ban. We don't want to be in any way helpful to drivers, because they should be cycling instead.

The great thing is that nearly everything drivers do can be labelled as "dangerous", in that it will probably result in some sort of injury to someone if done enough millions of times. Then it's an easy home run: say it needs to be banned ("if it saves just one life..."), and characterise anyone who disagrees as callous and not thinking about children enough. Then move onto something else. Wait, I've got one! Parking on slopes is "dangerous" because the driver might leave the handbrake off. While we could solve this problem with technology, it would be much more fun to ban parking on slopes altogether...

Did I comment on how dangerous it was?

I simply said the worst case scenario was pretty bad, but whether it is likely or not is another matter.

The issue is how much inconvenience vs the level of risk. Banning parking on a slope woud cause massive inconvenience and would be in reality be unworkable. Making people hold the fuel filler handle while filling is a minor inconvenience given the potential severity of the worst case scenario. It's not even something I've ever heard anyone complaining about till I came on PH.

[Hugo a Gogo]

Devil2575 said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

yes I do

filled up my car tonight, left it filling while I cleaned the windows - clicked the lock open tab, nobody died

I once drank a whole bottle of scotch whiskey. I didn't die therefore it is safe.

So presumably you rely on the auto cut-off function to prevent overfilling?

yes, it cuts off automatically

If you had drunk a whole bottle of Scotch every week, perhaps previously in another job, two and even three times a day, for the last 20 years

if every time you drunk a bottle of Scotch you saw several other people doing the same, or even every time you walked past the offy

if every Scotch shop where you lived supplied funnels with their bottles of Scotch specifically to let people to down it in one go,

if you had never heard of 'in-one-go-Scotch-drinking' ever causing any harm,

then that analogy might apply, and you might consider shotgunning Scotch to be perfectly safe

[Devil2575]

Hugo a Gogo said:

Devil2575 said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

yes I do

filled up my car tonight, left it filling while I cleaned the windows - clicked the lock open tab, nobody died

I once drank a whole bottle of scotch whiskey. I didn't die therefore it is safe.

So presumably you rely on the auto cut-off function to prevent overfilling?

yes, it cuts off automatically

If you had drunk a whole bottle of Scotch every week, perhaps previously in another job, two and even three times a day, for the last 20 years

if every time you drunk a bottle of Scotch you saw several other people doing the same, or even every time you walked past the offy

if every Scotch shop where you lived supplied funnels with their bottles of Scotch specifically to let people to down it in one go,

if you had never heard of 'in-one-go-Scotch-drinking' ever causing any harm,

then that analogy might apply, and you might consider shotgunning Scotch to be perfectly safe

The point still stands. I wasn't saying the situation was directly analogous, I was saying that the "No one died therefore it is safe" comment doesn't hold water.
Besides, go out on many high streets on a Friday night and you will see people drinking vast quantities of alcohol over the course of a few hours. They don't die, I don't personally don't know of anyone who has died of alcohol poisoning, yet that isn't evidence that people cannot and do not die from drinking too much in a single session.

Whether or not the risks of taking your hand off the pump when filling up outweight the inconvenienece or not, the fact that you don't know anyone who has died as a result isn't proof that it is safe.

[Hugo a Gogo]

no it isn't you're right

but I'll continue doing it because I believe the risks are minute, based on the evidence (and I realise that sounds like the beginning of a safety video where minutes later I explode in flames)

[ruggedscotty]

I read this and see a few comments about mobiles - The issue with mobiles isnt the radio transmittions - its to do with the battery contacts - There are specific regulations governing electrical equipment around fuel pumps - Ex rated for a start to ensure that the equipment doesnt interact with the environment and trigger an explosion.

Ex rated is constructed 1 to prevent an explosion and 2 to contain any that occur within the confines of the equipment casing.

With your average mobile the main issue is with the battery contacts - if you flex a phone enough you will cause arcs at the battery contacts - these arcs are hot enough to ignite petrol fumes and then the phone case isnt strong enough to contain the resultant effect.

It a risk situation the odds of it happening are low but the consequence is high so the rsk has to be managed hence the reason its frowned upon to be using a phone next to a fuel pump.