Discrimination during maternity leave
Discussion
_dobbo_ said:
You realise maternity leave doesn't exist to benefit the individual - it exists to benefit society as a whole, including you?
Think about it - if huge numbers of people in employment stopped having children because they couldn't afford it, or it impacted their career prospects, or lost them their jobs, what would happen? Clue: nothing good.
Think about it - if huge numbers of people in employment stopped having children because they couldn't afford it, or it impacted their career prospects, or lost them their jobs, what would happen? Clue: nothing good.
How does maternity leave benefit society? Are we running out of people and so need to incentivise procreation? Or do we have record youth unemployment and crime levels?
Durzel said:
Moonhawk said:
No - if there is an inequality - it is between people who choose to have kids and those who do not. A man on paternity leave is in exactly the same position to a woman on maternity leave (especially not the new SPL rules have come into force).
Having kids is a lifestyle choice. Part of planning to have a kid should take into account that in taking a significant break from your career - you will be disadvantaged relative to peers who don't take such a break.
This is IMO as it should be. In most areas of the private sector - pay, bonuses and promotions are performance related. You cannot expect a performance related pay rise, bonus or promotion if you haven't been able to demonstrate performance due to absence from work (for whatever reason, maternity, paternity, sabbatical etc)
To do so would be discriminatory against those people (both men and women) who have remained in work and who have demonstrated their performance.
That's one rather cynical way of looking at it I suppose. The other - more empathetic, practical way that is backed up by the Law - is that couples having children is a fact of life that businesses have to work around, not stymie or illegally punish. Having kids is a lifestyle choice. Part of planning to have a kid should take into account that in taking a significant break from your career - you will be disadvantaged relative to peers who don't take such a break.
This is IMO as it should be. In most areas of the private sector - pay, bonuses and promotions are performance related. You cannot expect a performance related pay rise, bonus or promotion if you haven't been able to demonstrate performance due to absence from work (for whatever reason, maternity, paternity, sabbatical etc)
To do so would be discriminatory against those people (both men and women) who have remained in work and who have demonstrated their performance.
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 8th October 12:12
It's actualy quite simple.
BaronVonVaderham said:
How does maternity leave benefit society? Are we running out of people and so need to incentivise procreation? Or do we have record youth unemployment and crime levels?
Society needs educated and employed people to have children
BaronVonVaderham said:
Yes I'm rather old fashioned and was raised to believe that life is about choices and sacrifices as opposed to wanting everything and feeling entitled to it.
So how do you feel about those that have little choice - for example, single mother on low a salary whose partner walks out on them? What can they choose and/or sacrifice?Moonhawk said:
Breadvan72 said:
Pregnancy creates an inherent inequality between men and women that favours men in the workplace because, for example, they are there to apply for the promotion when the woman is not.
No - if there is an inequality - it is between people who choose to have kids and those who do not. A man on paternity leave is in exactly the same position to a woman on maternity leave (especially not the new SPL rules have come into force).Having kids is a lifestyle choice. Part of planning to have a kid should take into account that in taking a significant break from your career - you will be disadvantaged relative to peers who don't take such a break.
This is IMO as it should be. In most areas of the private sector - pay, bonuses and promotions are performance related. You cannot expect a performance related pay rise, bonus or promotion if you haven't been able to demonstrate performance due to absence from work (for whatever reason, maternity, paternity, sabbatical etc)
To do so would be discriminatory against those people (both men and women) who have remained in work and who have demonstrated their performance.
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 8th October 12:12
Holy Moly there are some idiots on here...
Employers (should) want to employ the best, most able, most creative people in their businesses.
As it happens some of these able, creative people (of both genders) will go on to procreate. It's what human beings do, generally.
Employers (should) want to keep these people in their business. Why lose your able, creative people just because they have sproggified?
Thus you incentivise your able, creative people to stay. You work with them to enable them to stay on through pregnancy and beyond. You offer them flexible working when they return. Otherwise they will just go on to work somewhere else and take their talents to your competitors.
It's not about rewarding spongers or those playing the system, it's about ensuring that your most able employees stick with you.
So, smart businesses should work to ensure that their prospective parents are supported. Otherwise you're just left with a bunch of stupid men working for you...
Employers (should) want to employ the best, most able, most creative people in their businesses.
As it happens some of these able, creative people (of both genders) will go on to procreate. It's what human beings do, generally.
Employers (should) want to keep these people in their business. Why lose your able, creative people just because they have sproggified?
Thus you incentivise your able, creative people to stay. You work with them to enable them to stay on through pregnancy and beyond. You offer them flexible working when they return. Otherwise they will just go on to work somewhere else and take their talents to your competitors.
It's not about rewarding spongers or those playing the system, it's about ensuring that your most able employees stick with you.
So, smart businesses should work to ensure that their prospective parents are supported. Otherwise you're just left with a bunch of stupid men working for you...
RobinOakapple said:
Moonhawk said:
Breadvan72 said:
Pregnancy creates an inherent inequality between men and women that favours men in the workplace because, for example, they are there to apply for the promotion when the woman is not.
No - if there is an inequality - it is between people who choose to have kids and those who do not. A man on paternity leave is in exactly the same position to a woman on maternity leave (especially not the new SPL rules have come into force).Having kids is a lifestyle choice. Part of planning to have a kid should take into account that in taking a significant break from your career - you will be disadvantaged relative to peers who don't take such a break.
This is IMO as it should be. In most areas of the private sector - pay, bonuses and promotions are performance related. You cannot expect a performance related pay rise, bonus or promotion if you haven't been able to demonstrate performance due to absence from work (for whatever reason, maternity, paternity, sabbatical etc)
To do so would be discriminatory against those people (both men and women) who have remained in work and who have demonstrated their performance.
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 8th October 12:12
The fact is the company did not fully comply with the law and they have paid the price, literally.
Corpulent Tosser said:
RobinOakapple said:
Moonhawk said:
Breadvan72 said:
Pregnancy creates an inherent inequality between men and women that favours men in the workplace because, for example, they are there to apply for the promotion when the woman is not.
No - if there is an inequality - it is between people who choose to have kids and those who do not. A man on paternity leave is in exactly the same position to a woman on maternity leave (especially not the new SPL rules have come into force).Having kids is a lifestyle choice. Part of planning to have a kid should take into account that in taking a significant break from your career - you will be disadvantaged relative to peers who don't take such a break.
This is IMO as it should be. In most areas of the private sector - pay, bonuses and promotions are performance related. You cannot expect a performance related pay rise, bonus or promotion if you haven't been able to demonstrate performance due to absence from work (for whatever reason, maternity, paternity, sabbatical etc)
To do so would be discriminatory against those people (both men and women) who have remained in work and who have demonstrated their performance.
Edited by Moonhawk on Thursday 8th October 12:12
The fact is the company did not fully comply with the law and they have paid the price, literally.
BaronVonVaderham said:
_dobbo_ said:
You realise maternity leave doesn't exist to benefit the individual - it exists to benefit society as a whole, including you?
Think about it - if huge numbers of people in employment stopped having children because they couldn't afford it, or it impacted their career prospects, or lost them their jobs, what would happen? Clue: nothing good.
Think about it - if huge numbers of people in employment stopped having children because they couldn't afford it, or it impacted their career prospects, or lost them their jobs, what would happen? Clue: nothing good.
How does maternity leave benefit society? Are we running out of people and so need to incentivise procreation? Or do we have record youth unemployment and crime levels?
EDIT: actually sorry no, that's not helpful as a reply.
Try this - if only the very rich and very poor are having children, and all the people in the middle are not because they make a reasoned judgement that they can't afford it, what happens?
Edited by _dobbo_ on Thursday 8th October 15:38
Edited by _dobbo_ on Thursday 8th October 15:40
JustinP1 said:
OK, you create a new role and ideally want to fill from within.
Is the job open to everyone fairly if you don't tell the staff who are away training or sick that day and not in work?
No no no that's different see - because being sick is not a choice, and being pregnant is a choice, and women who get pregnant don't deserve anything except to be at home cooking and cleaning and breastfeeding and basically doing as they are told.Is the job open to everyone fairly if you don't tell the staff who are away training or sick that day and not in work?
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