Buying a building site ROW issue
Discussion
My solicitor has just went on holiday so the wife and I are pulling our hair out as we have just found out that the site we are buying has right of way issues.
Vendor claims they know nothing about this ROW. The site was being sold to us as "private lane, building site and small field" by the estate agent.
What I am asking here do we have a case for abandonment by the farmer?
We are trying to buy a site that was sold to a developer in 2007 by a farmer. Developer went bust shortly after and the site was repossessed. It has only recently been put on the market.
There was to be a long lane into the site and it has been written into the deeds that the farmer has domestic ROW and farming ROW along this lane. The lane was to serve two houses but we are buying the lot as planning failed on the other site (a field).
The lane was never built. The land has been completely sealed off since 2007 and is impassable due to self seeded trees now several feet tall and dense overgrowth. The farmer has access to his land from other places and has never used this area to access his land since 2007, possibly longer but we know for sure since 2007.
He has the domestic right of way in place to make the adjoining land more valuable but he wont get planning as the law here has recently changed and a planning expert has been brought on board to confirm this.
We offered to buy the ROW from the farmer but he gave us a polite "no". He also stated he doesn't need it but it makes the surrounding land "more valuable".
I'm worried that we might spend thousands on building a driveway and the farmer decides he wants to use it to access a field even though he has access elsewhere.
I'm in panic mode right now.
Vendor claims they know nothing about this ROW. The site was being sold to us as "private lane, building site and small field" by the estate agent.
What I am asking here do we have a case for abandonment by the farmer?
We are trying to buy a site that was sold to a developer in 2007 by a farmer. Developer went bust shortly after and the site was repossessed. It has only recently been put on the market.
There was to be a long lane into the site and it has been written into the deeds that the farmer has domestic ROW and farming ROW along this lane. The lane was to serve two houses but we are buying the lot as planning failed on the other site (a field).
The lane was never built. The land has been completely sealed off since 2007 and is impassable due to self seeded trees now several feet tall and dense overgrowth. The farmer has access to his land from other places and has never used this area to access his land since 2007, possibly longer but we know for sure since 2007.
He has the domestic right of way in place to make the adjoining land more valuable but he wont get planning as the law here has recently changed and a planning expert has been brought on board to confirm this.
We offered to buy the ROW from the farmer but he gave us a polite "no". He also stated he doesn't need it but it makes the surrounding land "more valuable".
I'm worried that we might spend thousands on building a driveway and the farmer decides he wants to use it to access a field even though he has access elsewhere.
I'm in panic mode right now.
Your solicitor has just gone on holiday. He or she has not just went anywhere!
Ask another lawyer at the firm for advice, or wait until the solicitor returns from holiday. Is this matter pressingly urgent?
If you are given advice here (by someone who may have no legal experience and may just be making up some baloney), you act on that advice, and that advice turns out to be wrong, you won't be able to sue the person who advised you. This place is OK for rants about speeding tickets and advice on small claims, but not for advice on serious stuff like property rights. Wait for your solicitor, who is qualified, regulated, and insured to advise you.
Ask another lawyer at the firm for advice, or wait until the solicitor returns from holiday. Is this matter pressingly urgent?
If you are given advice here (by someone who may have no legal experience and may just be making up some baloney), you act on that advice, and that advice turns out to be wrong, you won't be able to sue the person who advised you. This place is OK for rants about speeding tickets and advice on small claims, but not for advice on serious stuff like property rights. Wait for your solicitor, who is qualified, regulated, and insured to advise you.
Yes I will wait for the solicitor to get back. I'm just chucking it out there for inspiration.
I won't act without proper legal advice. I have ran everything past the solicitor in an attempt to leave no stone unturned.
I might need someone who specialises in this. Would my solicitor do this on my behalf or will I have to leave to go elsewhere. Time is pressing now.
I have just found out the farmer won't relinquish the ROW and I was hoping if there might be a case for abandonment.
I would only go down that route if the farmer started messing us about. I'm prepared to revise my offer and take a gamble on the site if the vendor accepts.
If your solicitor lacks the expertise that you seek, he or she can instruct specialist counsel, or you can find another solicitor. A good lawyer, however, is not the same as the lawyer who always tells you what you want to hear. I am no property lawyer, so I do not know whether or not there is anything you can do about the right of way. I would not be at all surprised, however, if slow poke is correct.
slow_poke said:
Disuse is not abandonment. Just because Farmer has not used his ROW doesn't mean he has abandoned it, it just means he hasn't used it.
It's his. There's nothing you can do about it. Accept that and make your decisions based on that.
Yup got that so what if I buy the land and don't touch it for say a year from now and the farmer "suddenly" wants to travel up the right of way, can he claim it is blocked due to the state it is in and force me to clear it?It's his. There's nothing you can do about it. Accept that and make your decisions based on that.
I have no plans to build until possibly new year and even then I am only going to clear up to the building site and not further to the field as marked on the map. I will be leaving that as is.
Breadvan72 said:
If your solicitor lacks the expertise that you seek, he or she can instruct specialist counsel, or you can find another solicitor. A good lawyer, however, is not the same as the lawyer who always tells you what you want to hear. I am no property lawyer, so I do not know whether or not there is anything you can do about the right of way. I would not be at all surprised, however, if slow poke is correct.
Well it's certainly looking that way. Thanks for replying.I'll keep digging as I really want to know worst case scenario. My life savings is going into this and it's a dam good site apart from this headache.
Last thing I want to wake up to is a lane full of cows.
Breadvan72 said:
If your solicitor lacks the expertise that you seek, he or she can instruct specialist counsel, or you can find another solicitor. A good lawyer, however, is not the same as the lawyer who always tells you what you want to hear. I am no property lawyer, so I do not know whether or not there is anything you can do about the right of way. I would not be at all surprised, however, if slow poke is correct.
Don't forget public access / direct access to barristers. OP, you could independently get an opinion from a specialist barrister - you and he don't have to inform your solicitor about this (but it may be sensible to do so). clerksroomdirect is quite a good way of finding someone. If the right of way is in the deeds then it doesn't need to be used so can't be 'abandoned'
I have painful experience of this from an old farm property I used to own.
If the farmer won't sell or alter the right of way then you may be best looking elsewhere.
It may be possible to buy an insurance policy but if it is clearly in the deeds and the matter has already been discussed with the farmer this is unlikely.
I have painful experience of this from an old farm property I used to own.
If the farmer won't sell or alter the right of way then you may be best looking elsewhere.
It may be possible to buy an insurance policy but if it is clearly in the deeds and the matter has already been discussed with the farmer this is unlikely.
IANAL but this seems pretty uncomplicated.
Farmer owns ROW, is aware of ownership and the benefits it brings him, isn't willing to sell it.
You can't force him to sell it to you, nor can you disregard its legal status, so the only option you have is to decide whether the ROW is a deal breaker.
Farmer owns ROW, is aware of ownership and the benefits it brings him, isn't willing to sell it.
You can't force him to sell it to you, nor can you disregard its legal status, so the only option you have is to decide whether the ROW is a deal breaker.
V8A*ndy said:
slow_poke said:
Disuse is not abandonment. Just because Farmer has not used his ROW doesn't mean he has abandoned it, it just means he hasn't used it.
It's his. There's nothing you can do about it. Accept that and make your decisions based on that.
Yup got that so what if I buy the land and don't touch it for say a year from now and the farmer "suddenly" wants to travel up the right of way, can he claim it is blocked due to the state it is in and force me to clear it?It's his. There's nothing you can do about it. Accept that and make your decisions based on that.
No, he can't force you to clear it, but he can clear it himself to make it passable for him to exercise his right of way.
This is all at a very simplistic level, and as ever, the devil will be in the detail. In this case, how the ROW is worded in the paperwork. But I reckon you've got the gist of it now. Get yourself qualified expertise advice to put your mind at rest.
oldnewbie said:
We don't know the layout of the size of the plot but if possible why not fence of the lane that farmer has ROW over, make yourself a separate access into the plot from the lane
The farmer wants a right of way, but probably isn't bothered where it runs. IANAL but I imagine that he might well be happy with it running down the edge or across the corner of your plot. It'll lose you a bit of land but as oldnewbie says you might be able to make it look just like your driveway but with a gate at the end of it with a bit of lateral thinking and negotiation.
As for the cows, you'll have to get used to those anyway.
elanfan said:
Going off at a tangent is there anyway that preservation orders could be applied of already apply to the trees? Your arbocultural officer at the council will advise you. If these then block his ROW then he could be screwed???
Worth looking into indeed. I know of another development that was severely delayed and curtailed by TPOs.Thanks for all the replies however I can't go on anything more until I speak to the solicitor as I now have all this to talk to him about.
Farmer now says he only has Farming ROW on part of the lane but Domestic ROW over all of it.
Original Developer Says farmer only has Domestic ROW and has given me some documents that seem to support this but I don't really know what it all means but he states that's how it was sold to him by the farmer.
To add, the Farmer has been very honest and upfront about everything. I'm just really concerned about the future when he isn't around.
I think our solicitor has uncovered something more to all this but the letter we got on Friday is as clear as mud to me.
I'll update.
As Breadvan has said, the ONLY advice is from a professional legal type person. I do know, however, that the two biggest issues with land is ROW and boundaries. Both have caused enormous headaches, problems, and financial ruin for some. You may have to be prepared to walk away from this with your money still in the bank.
As an aside, I once bought a piece of land that had a very old ROW along one side into a farmers field for a 'wagon of hay'. Never was used, the field had a bloody great ditch surrounding it. Since the ROW was established, two huge oak trees had grown, effectively preventing the passage of anything larger than a bicycle! And the two trees in question, now had TPO's on them. Never did find out what happened, because I sold the plot a bit later.
As an aside, I once bought a piece of land that had a very old ROW along one side into a farmers field for a 'wagon of hay'. Never was used, the field had a bloody great ditch surrounding it. Since the ROW was established, two huge oak trees had grown, effectively preventing the passage of anything larger than a bicycle! And the two trees in question, now had TPO's on them. Never did find out what happened, because I sold the plot a bit later.
Edited by robinessex on Tuesday 18th August 11:46
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff