Buying a building site ROW issue
Discussion
Plenty of people know lots about ROW's but are not lawyers. I have had to educate some lawyers on ROW's but IANAL, but I have been buying land many times a year for nearly 30 years and know most of the issues. Having said that, the only safe advice can come from someone who has PI insurance to make good any error in the advice given. Many lawyers know pretty much sod all about property, so bear that in mind too.
Firstly no one can really comment without seeing the title and how the ROW is worded. Who was responsible for building the road/lane?, was that to be build under the terms of a positive covenant? does the ROW actually come into existence before the lane is constructed?
Secondly, does the ROW fetter what you want to do with the land? If not then its probably not a big deal.
Firstly no one can really comment without seeing the title and how the ROW is worded. Who was responsible for building the road/lane?, was that to be build under the terms of a positive covenant? does the ROW actually come into existence before the lane is constructed?
Secondly, does the ROW fetter what you want to do with the land? If not then its probably not a big deal.
My Mother in laws bungalow has a right of way for part of her driveway for access to a large field occupied currently by horses.
Horse owners use it twice a day for feeding and mucking out the small stables on the field.
Has never been an issue, there is a separate gate for access for the driveway by the side of her bungalow that leads to her garage.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0203972,-0.42776...
Can't zoom in any more but entrance is by the white artic. Shared ROW goes north to the field top left of her bungalow with the light coloured roof and garage next to it. Her private driveway goes off perpendicular to the shared driveway and is bordered by the hedge, garage and side of her house.
Just demonstrating that it's not necessarily a bad thing especially as the farmer seems ok and upfront about it.
Horse owners use it twice a day for feeding and mucking out the small stables on the field.
Has never been an issue, there is a separate gate for access for the driveway by the side of her bungalow that leads to her garage.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0203972,-0.42776...
Can't zoom in any more but entrance is by the white artic. Shared ROW goes north to the field top left of her bungalow with the light coloured roof and garage next to it. Her private driveway goes off perpendicular to the shared driveway and is bordered by the hedge, garage and side of her house.
Just demonstrating that it's not necessarily a bad thing especially as the farmer seems ok and upfront about it.
Not quite the same but we had to take advice when we bought our property as it's down a private road and no-one seems to know who actually owns the road. As such, it could be the case that some deeds come to light and someone could declare ROW or even wish to do something with the land.
There are 30-40 houses on our little estate and no-ones ever had a problem in the last 30 years so it's highly unlikely to ever become an issue. We do have an insurance policy though to the current value of the property that would get paid should someone come along and legally prevent us from getting access to it..
regards
Ben
There are 30-40 houses on our little estate and no-ones ever had a problem in the last 30 years so it's highly unlikely to ever become an issue. We do have an insurance policy though to the current value of the property that would get paid should someone come along and legally prevent us from getting access to it..
regards
Ben
An update.
The plot thickens......
I get to speak to the solicitor on Friday, however I was sent the ROW docs to look over them complete with no explanation, so I'm a bit lost.
From looking at the maps the farming and unrestricted ROW actually runs along a lane that runs parallel to the property we wish to buy and then on past it to another road.
This lane isn't on our property but a ROW is mentioned on our title???? It's from 1947 and is marked by 3 points X Y and Z and mentions a laneway and a yard that is there (now derelict) but not part of the property we wish to buy.
Totally confused now. The domestic ROW is clearly marked but that isn't an issue for now.
I spoke to the developer and he told me that there was never a lane on the property we are intending to buy. He bought a strip of land that was part of a field to make a lane and fenced it off from the farmers field on the left. This other laneway is on the right and runs alongside it. It is gated, locked and fenced off from ours.
Why it's mentioned on our title I have no idea.
The plot thickens......
I get to speak to the solicitor on Friday, however I was sent the ROW docs to look over them complete with no explanation, so I'm a bit lost.
From looking at the maps the farming and unrestricted ROW actually runs along a lane that runs parallel to the property we wish to buy and then on past it to another road.
This lane isn't on our property but a ROW is mentioned on our title???? It's from 1947 and is marked by 3 points X Y and Z and mentions a laneway and a yard that is there (now derelict) but not part of the property we wish to buy.
Totally confused now. The domestic ROW is clearly marked but that isn't an issue for now.
I spoke to the developer and he told me that there was never a lane on the property we are intending to buy. He bought a strip of land that was part of a field to make a lane and fenced it off from the farmers field on the left. This other laneway is on the right and runs alongside it. It is gated, locked and fenced off from ours.
Why it's mentioned on our title I have no idea.
OP I am more worried that your solicitor has not left you with a clear understanding of the situation, regardless of what way it swings.
Seriously this sort of thing is bread and butter to anyone who even half fancies them self as a property specialist and should have been knocked into the long grass/flagged as a genuine issue within 10 minutes of being noted on the title.
You need to be sure that you have full confidence in your solicitor and that they put their advice on this in writing to you. I say this as someone who specialises in property law and deals with these sorts of issues regularly so long as they stay non contentious, which is when I pass the file to the Rottweilers.
Seriously this sort of thing is bread and butter to anyone who even half fancies them self as a property specialist and should have been knocked into the long grass/flagged as a genuine issue within 10 minutes of being noted on the title.
You need to be sure that you have full confidence in your solicitor and that they put their advice on this in writing to you. I say this as someone who specialises in property law and deals with these sorts of issues regularly so long as they stay non contentious, which is when I pass the file to the Rottweilers.
Rude-boy said:
OP I am more worried that your solicitor has not left you with a clear understanding of the situation, regardless of what way it swings.
Seriously this sort of thing is bread and butter to anyone who even half fancies them self as a property specialist and should have been knocked into the long grass/flagged as a genuine issue within 10 minutes of being noted on the title.
You need to be sure that you have full confidence in your solicitor and that they put their advice on this in writing to you. I say this as someone who specialises in property law and deals with these sorts of issues regularly so long as they stay non contentious, which is when I pass the file to the Rottweilers.
I have now no confidence whatsoever at this point. I want to hit the guy with as many questions as possible this week to get to the bottom of this. Seriously this sort of thing is bread and butter to anyone who even half fancies them self as a property specialist and should have been knocked into the long grass/flagged as a genuine issue within 10 minutes of being noted on the title.
You need to be sure that you have full confidence in your solicitor and that they put their advice on this in writing to you. I say this as someone who specialises in property law and deals with these sorts of issues regularly so long as they stay non contentious, which is when I pass the file to the Rottweilers.
I know nothing of this sort of thing and I am just running on gut instinct to make sure I have all bases covered hence the reason I am asking the solicitor to sort it out and explain it all in a manner the wife and I can relate to.
The solicitor has already told us not to go ahead but then again the first day we met with him he wanted us to sign the contract. I refused as I wanted to know about possible ROWs which at that point he couldn't answer and now here we are.
Anyway if there is no satisfaction by next week he's getting dumped but time isn't on our side right now.
I need a Rottweiler or two....
If your location had been E&W I would have suggested you let me have a copy of the title and I would try to give you some questions to ask them to answer, sadly your are off my patch by some way.
If you have genuinely lost your coffidence in your advisor it might well be worth your while either a) explaining this to them calmly and with your reasons and asking them to take this on board and step up to the plate, or b) finding someone else. Seriously even the worst kept resi conveyancing file for the most horrendously complex Leasehold deal shouldn't take anyone with any experiance and ability more than 15 minutes to get a basic heads up and 2 hours to know the full detail of.
As for asking you to sign the contract I really would not be bothered about. I quite often have papers all signed up in my file awaiting everything coming together and all being ready for exchange. Your Solicitor is under your instruction. They should not exchange the contract without your authority to do so regardless of if you signed the papers 2 minutes or 10 months ago. It is the exchagne of contracts which will legally bind you to the purchase/sale (or at least in E&W it is!) If the solicitor were to exchange contracts without your authority to do so then whilst it will be your issue, it will be their (very expensive) problem unless you are feeling very kind...
If you have genuinely lost your coffidence in your advisor it might well be worth your while either a) explaining this to them calmly and with your reasons and asking them to take this on board and step up to the plate, or b) finding someone else. Seriously even the worst kept resi conveyancing file for the most horrendously complex Leasehold deal shouldn't take anyone with any experiance and ability more than 15 minutes to get a basic heads up and 2 hours to know the full detail of.
As for asking you to sign the contract I really would not be bothered about. I quite often have papers all signed up in my file awaiting everything coming together and all being ready for exchange. Your Solicitor is under your instruction. They should not exchange the contract without your authority to do so regardless of if you signed the papers 2 minutes or 10 months ago. It is the exchagne of contracts which will legally bind you to the purchase/sale (or at least in E&W it is!) If the solicitor were to exchange contracts without your authority to do so then whilst it will be your issue, it will be their (very expensive) problem unless you are feeling very kind...
Rude-boy said:
If your location had been E&W I would have suggested you let me have a copy of the title and I would try to give you some questions to ask them to answer, sadly your are off my patch by some way.
Thanks for the kind offer and reading my posts. Hopefully the wife and I get to the bottom of this mess no matter how it plays out because we really need to know even if we do walk away.I'm aware the solicitor wouldn't have actually went ahead without instruction, it was more that everything was fine until I raised a concern.
Anyways I've been wrecking my head wondering why this ROW over a lane that won't be our property is mentioned on the title. It mentions land on folios that we don't have and probably won't ever see as it was so long ago.
I've spoken to some length again to the original developer (the guy from whom the bank repossessed the site) and he has walked the site with me pointing out everything he can remember. Super guy and I hope he gets a chance to bid on a build price for me.
He is adamant that Mr Farmer has no ROW and has even given me the details of the legal firm that dealt with his original purchase from the farmer.
I don't know wether these guys maybe able to help you out. They were 'in the frame' as they say when I had a potential issue on a land buy, but my solicitor managed to sort it before we needed them, so I'm not in a position to recommend.
http://www.jtspartnership.co.uk/
http://www.jtspartnership.co.uk/
desolate said:
Either way - I wouldn't want to be living near an uppity farmer who feels disgruntled, whether he is justified or not.
Any land he owns that borders yours could well become the dump for crap - mechanical and/or animal.
To be fair the farmer is a very nice man and well regarded in the area. There shouldn't be an issue with him and we have spoken on very good terms.Any land he owns that borders yours could well become the dump for crap - mechanical and/or animal.
It's who he sells the land to after he retires is the problem hence the issue getting this nailed.
desolate said:
Either way - I wouldn't want to be living near an uppity farmer who feels disgruntled, whether he is justified or not.
Any land he owns that borders yours could well become the dump for crap - mechanical and/or animal.
When it comes to land, I have never met a farmer who isn't uppity.........Any land he owns that borders yours could well become the dump for crap - mechanical and/or animal.
Did the farmer object to the planning permission 'your' land benefits from? Doesn't affect anything but might give you an idea as to his true feelings on the matter.
I'd also want to double check there he hasn't got an overage provision (either planning or sales or a claw back) on the land too; even if he isn't the current freeholder of 'your' land.
Just some thoughts.
I'd also want to double check there he hasn't got an overage provision (either planning or sales or a claw back) on the land too; even if he isn't the current freeholder of 'your' land.
Just some thoughts.
Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
Did the farmer object to the planning permission 'your' land benefits from? Doesn't affect anything but might give you an idea as to his true feelings on the matter.
I'd also want to double check there he hasn't got an overage provision (either planning or sales or a claw back) on the land too; even if he isn't the current freeholder of 'your' land.
Just some thoughts.
Farmer gained planning permission himself and sold the sites to a developer who went bust. Farmer has land adjoining our proposed lane hence the domestic ROW that is in place if he ever wishes to develop in the future, however he hasn't a hope of planning as the law here in N.Ireland has changed.I'd also want to double check there he hasn't got an overage provision (either planning or sales or a claw back) on the land too; even if he isn't the current freeholder of 'your' land.
Just some thoughts.
So it's just the unrestricted farming ROW and there has been a development on this.
Firstly thanks to the many that have replied here as some suggestions have proved fruitful and our solicitor seems to have overlooked something that the wife and I discovered ourselves.
Hopefully the experts here will understand the following....
Simply put the farming ROW is totally unclear. It is not marked on any current map apart from an X and a Y with no lines between and a reference to "as shown in" a map "1234", however a typed document from 1947 stating the establishment of a ROW up a lane and through a yard that runs parallel to our proposed lane and states as in map "1234 along lane and through yard between points X and Y". The map"1234" is no longer available.
Solicitor claims we are right in saying that there is enough evidence to prove that this ROW does not go over our land with the present day paper work that is available. He is now asking the other side to clarify and if they can't to insure us against it (still not 100% sure about the implications of this).
Solicitor has assumed X and Y followed our proposed lane but there is now evidence that it may not and Mr Farmers solicitors may have got it wrong when it was sold to the developer.
Yes it's a mess but hopefully it has progressed a little in our favour.
Opinions welcome.
Insurance probably won't be offered. You havd already dpoken to the farmer and he has claimed a right. Defective Title Indemnity Insurance usually carries a condition that no contact has been made with potential beneficiaries.
If one is offered, read the small print very carefully twice.
If one is offered, read the small print very carefully twice.
What did I say on the 18th of August at the beginning of this post ? Boundaries and ROW's are the biggest problem(s) with land purchases, especially in rural locations. I've heard of cases in my locality where land sales have been followed by opportunistic approaches by neighbours over the boundaries. Obviously hoping that poor maps offers the chance to make a 'land grab'
blueg33 said:
Insurance probably won't be offered. You havd already dpoken to the farmer and he has claimed a right. Defective Title Indemnity Insurance usually carries a condition that no contact has been made with potential beneficiaries.
If one is offered, read the small print very carefully twice.
Yes thanks for pointing that out. If one is offered, read the small print very carefully twice.
We only discussed buying out domestic ROW with farmer and he only mentioned farming ROW on one of the sites which to be fair would not be a deal breaker if it was indeed correct.
He also stated it was the only ROW he had if that makes any difference.
However, the solicitor has now also pointed out that with the site the farmer mentioned he had ROW, there is no access for him to actually get to the bit marked on the map.
It's marked by a little strip beside a field but the farmer would have to cross our field to get to it and there is nothing on the map to show this.
This complicates matters even further for the vendors.
It's a total mess
robinessex said:
I've heard of cases in my locality where land sales have been followed by opportunistic approaches by neighbours over the boundaries. Obviously hoping that poor maps offers the chance to make a 'land grab'
Again thanks for this.......I suppose this is something that is a very real possibility in regard to our situation.
I'll keep that thought on board.
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