I'm in court tomorrow.. What do I wear??
Discussion
photosnob said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
It's a very common tactic.
Witnesses can't or won't attend? CPS will offer no evidence & defendant walks free.
Witnesses do make the effort to take time out of their own schedule to attend? Defence solicitor advises defendant that it won't go well & that they should plead guilty. Court will still give some credit (and reduced penalty) for guilty plea.
Waste of everyone's time? You be the judge.
If you were the defendant though, it's got to be worth a punt, hasn't it?
You do realise that doesn't happen in reality don't you? In most cases it would just be adjourned whilst the witness was looked for. And if they wanted the witness badly enough they would go and arrest them. Even if that doesn't work they can use the witness statement in some cases. Witnesses can't or won't attend? CPS will offer no evidence & defendant walks free.
Witnesses do make the effort to take time out of their own schedule to attend? Defence solicitor advises defendant that it won't go well & that they should plead guilty. Court will still give some credit (and reduced penalty) for guilty plea.
Waste of everyone's time? You be the judge.
If you were the defendant though, it's got to be worth a punt, hasn't it?
If it was as simple as you are making out, every naughty boy/girl would get their mate to give a statement. The defence brief would then ask for that witness and the case would be thrown out when they didn't turn up. It's just not reality.
Maybe with something completely trivial like doing 35 in a 30. But for anything like battering someone they don't let people missing the bus a get out of jail free card.
Although I may have been simplistic in my first post, I know for certain that it is definitely a tactic in cases which would be considered low-to-medium in terms of seriousness.
Of course, in serious cases, witnesses can be compelled to attend court and this occasionally happens, but in the vast majority of other lower-level criminal prosecutions, if witnesses fail to attend, the CPS will offer no evidence. Offering no evidence formally "drops" the charges against a defendant, leaving no opportunity for witnesses to be chased up or compelled to attend.
Legal advisors won't openly admit that they use this tactic, as the decision on plea is always one which is ultimately made by the defendant alone. Having said that, I have been told by several solicitors over the years that delaying tactics, multiple adjournments and the like are often requested in the hope that witnesses will fail to attend.
So yes, in my experience it does happen in reality.
R_U_LOCAL said:
elephantstone said:
Might not have to go in at all. Think hes pleading guilty! Hope so im bored and starving!
He's more than likely pleading guilty because you've turned up, so don't view it as a complete waste of your time!mph1977 said:
classic gamesmanship ... not helped by the fact that a last minute guilty plea is treated the same as an early guilty plea for sentance abatement ...
How do you figure that? The guidelines are that a guilty plea at the first opportunity should result in a 1/3 discount. A guilty plea at the last moment only qualifies for a 1/10 reduction. Cat
R_U_LOCAL said:
He's more than likely pleading guilty because you've turned up, so don't view it as a complete waste of your time!
Absolutely.There is a very strong chance IF he is guilty and he knows a witness has turned up, he is going to plead guilty now to get as much of a discount as he can at this stage.
Therefore, your being a good person and turning up may well have ensured justice will be done today.
Jasandjules said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
He's more than likely pleading guilty because you've turned up, so don't view it as a complete waste of your time!
Absolutely.There is a very strong chance IF he is guilty and he knows a witness has turned up, he is going to plead guilty now to get as much of a discount as he can at this stage.
Therefore, your being a good person and turning up may well have ensured justice will be done today.
It's why so many who get jury service never get to see a court room. Accused turns up on the day either in the Paddy waggon or in person, is told that the witness has turned up and changes plea to guilty. Everyone gets a half day.
There is something that seems to focus the mind of the guilty when the allotted day for court appears and they walk through the door.
R_U_LOCAL said:
photosnob said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
It's a very common tactic.
Witnesses can't or won't attend? CPS will offer no evidence & defendant walks free.
Witnesses do make the effort to take time out of their own schedule to attend? Defence solicitor advises defendant that it won't go well & that they should plead guilty. Court will still give some credit (and reduced penalty) for guilty plea.
Waste of everyone's time? You be the judge.
If you were the defendant though, it's got to be worth a punt, hasn't it?
You do realise that doesn't happen in reality don't you? In most cases it would just be adjourned whilst the witness was looked for. And if they wanted the witness badly enough they would go and arrest them. Even if that doesn't work they can use the witness statement in some cases. Witnesses can't or won't attend? CPS will offer no evidence & defendant walks free.
Witnesses do make the effort to take time out of their own schedule to attend? Defence solicitor advises defendant that it won't go well & that they should plead guilty. Court will still give some credit (and reduced penalty) for guilty plea.
Waste of everyone's time? You be the judge.
If you were the defendant though, it's got to be worth a punt, hasn't it?
If it was as simple as you are making out, every naughty boy/girl would get their mate to give a statement. The defence brief would then ask for that witness and the case would be thrown out when they didn't turn up. It's just not reality.
Maybe with something completely trivial like doing 35 in a 30. But for anything like battering someone they don't let people missing the bus a get out of jail free card.
Although I may have been simplistic in my first post, I know for certain that it is definitely a tactic in cases which would be considered low-to-medium in terms of seriousness.
Of course, in serious cases, witnesses can be compelled to attend court and this occasionally happens, but in the vast majority of other lower-level criminal prosecutions, if witnesses fail to attend, the CPS will offer no evidence. Offering no evidence formally "drops" the charges against a defendant, leaving no opportunity for witnesses to be chased up or compelled to attend.
Legal advisors won't openly admit that they use this tactic, as the decision on plea is always one which is ultimately made by the defendant alone. Having said that, I have been told by several solicitors over the years that delaying tactics, multiple adjournments and the like are often requested in the hope that witnesses will fail to attend.
So yes, in my experience it does happen in reality.
elephantstone said:
Witnessed a road rage/bump and have been called to court tomorrow as a witness. What do i wear? Never been to court before so have no idea if there are general do's and donts. Was going to stick black jeans, shirt and a smart jacket and black smart boots. Will this be ok?
Would just like to say 'good on ya!' for stepping up.williredale said:
And in my limited experience too. A local scrote tried to steal my wife's laptop but she fought back and didn't let him have it. She also knew his name and it got as far as the court. When she turned up he changed his plea.
You do realise that her evidence wouldn't be required to convict in those circumstances? Theoretically a judge could refuse to take a statement but the viper parade is still admissible, as would any fingerprints on the laptop etc... On the logic shown in this thread how is any murder conviction achieved?
I'd bet a lot of money that until trial day he and his defence didn't have the evidence file. It's just easier/more convenient to say that people do it because they think they will walk if the witness doesn't show. For a robbery that was never going to happen. They would have adjourned - whilst they might not have arrested your wife they would have bent over backwards to help her give evidence, boards in court so she can't be seen or video link.
He changed his plea when he got the evidence pack. That is all. Blame the CPS for the witnesses having to go to court. Blame the courts for not enforcing the rules about not providing evidence at first hearing. That is all I have to say on the matter as I'm boring myself now.
williredale said:
And in my limited experience too. A local scrote tried to steal my wife's laptop but she fought back and didn't let him have it. She also knew his name and it got as far as the court. When she turned up he changed his plea.
It should be,Enter a guilty plea from the start, normal sentence.
Plead not guilty and attend court to find witnesses have turned up, change not guilty plea to guilty, increased punishment for changing plea/lying and hoping for the best.
read5458 said:
It should be,
Enter a guilty plea from the start, normal sentence.
Plead not guilty and attend court to find witnesses have turned up, change not guilty plea to guilty, increased punishment for changing plea/lying and hoping for the best.
Then they'll all opt for a trial and the court system will grind to a halt. Enter a guilty plea from the start, normal sentence.
Plead not guilty and attend court to find witnesses have turned up, change not guilty plea to guilty, increased punishment for changing plea/lying and hoping for the best.
photosnob said:
You do realise that doesn't happen in reality don't you? In most cases it would just be adjourned whilst the witness was looked for. And if they wanted the witness badly enough they would go and arrest them. Even if that doesn't work they can use the witness statement in some cases.
If it was as simple as you are making out, every naughty boy/girl would get their mate to give a statement. The defence brief would then ask for that witness and the case would be thrown out when they didn't turn up. It's just not reality.
Maybe with something completely trivial like doing 35 in a 30. But for anything like battering someone they don't let people missing the bus a get out of jail free card.
It does happen, nearly every case I have been called for over the last few years has resulted in a 'see who turns up' last minute plea. Those have all been serious matters too, no attempt to contact witness, no attempt to adjourn etc. If it was as simple as you are making out, every naughty boy/girl would get their mate to give a statement. The defence brief would then ask for that witness and the case would be thrown out when they didn't turn up. It's just not reality.
Maybe with something completely trivial like doing 35 in a 30. But for anything like battering someone they don't let people missing the bus a get out of jail free card.
Sad but true.
LoonR1 said:
Issi said:
But common sense and a tiny bit of dignity would have him turning up smart and not looking like he'd been dipped in glue and thrown through an Oxfam shop window.
Hmmmmmm, I wonder if wearing something like black jeans, shirt and a smart jacket and black smart boots would do. You know, just as he posted right at the start. 
Rangeroverover said:
You might want to ask the usher for a witness expenses form, so make sure you know mileage etc
Probably cost me a few quid im diesel and few quid parking.. Didnt bother filling in the form for that!The guy did plead guilty which i was very pleased about as i was bored, hungry and my phone battery was running out! I was also relieved as they had told me 20mins earlier that there was 4 trails before the one i was a witness for and my one would be last as it was an RTA. All in all i think it did make a difference that i attended as they had already had a hearing without me and he pleaded not guilty.
Would i do it again? Yes, but.. Take a phone charger, eat before and arrange for next door to look after my dogs!
Issi said:
LoonR1 said:
Issi said:
But common sense and a tiny bit of dignity would have him turning up smart and not looking like he'd been dipped in glue and thrown through an Oxfam shop window.
Hmmmmmm, I wonder if wearing something like black jeans, shirt and a smart jacket and black smart boots would do. You know, just as he posted right at the start. LoonR1 said:
Issi said:
LoonR1 said:
Issi said:
But common sense and a tiny bit of dignity would have him turning up smart and not looking like he'd been dipped in glue and thrown through an Oxfam shop window.
Hmmmmmm, I wonder if wearing something like black jeans, shirt and a smart jacket and black smart boots would do. You know, just as he posted right at the start. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff