Lowcarb diet cause false breathalyser readings, blood test?
Discussion
Hello all.
I imagine this hasn't come up, I certainly couldn't find anything on it. Myself and my brother, like many others have lost weight with low carb diets. However, we've both had a go at the very low calorie shake only diets (the ones containing about 600cal/day that force your body into a higher state of ketosis) I love em, losing multiple pounds a week, loads of energy, brain works ace, brilliant.
However, he has a safety critical job, got a random breath test yesterday. Didn't blow a zero, actually blew two wildly different numbers. I think he said a 78mg and a 8mg (the limit for his job being 13mg). No mouthwash, no alcohol for weeks. I did a bit of digging. It seems that on a low carb diet, like Atkins or similar, your body produces these proteins called ketones which allow your muscles to burn fat, rather than glucose. Anyhow, in the production of ketosis, your body produces a small amount of acetone (I think), you breath this out, hense weird Atkins diet breath. Which I guess confuses the breathalyser. I don't know much beyond that, but what I do know is that I've googled it and it is a thing. I've not made it up.
So, he's talking it out with his boss as to wether it's worth staying on the diet. But I'm a lorry driver, and I work in Scotland, with the new lower limits. My question is, if I get pulled over/involved in an accident/randomly tested, am I within my rights (assume I fail a breath test) to demand a blood test, either in the Scotland or anywhere else?
Thanks for any advice,.
Ps. please don't give me any lectures on what your views are on such an extreme diet and its percieved health risks that you might want to lecture me about. I've had it all before, only am now 5 stone lighter (and healthier) than I was before, on a diet that was designed to help diabetics shed the pounds quick.
I imagine this hasn't come up, I certainly couldn't find anything on it. Myself and my brother, like many others have lost weight with low carb diets. However, we've both had a go at the very low calorie shake only diets (the ones containing about 600cal/day that force your body into a higher state of ketosis) I love em, losing multiple pounds a week, loads of energy, brain works ace, brilliant.
However, he has a safety critical job, got a random breath test yesterday. Didn't blow a zero, actually blew two wildly different numbers. I think he said a 78mg and a 8mg (the limit for his job being 13mg). No mouthwash, no alcohol for weeks. I did a bit of digging. It seems that on a low carb diet, like Atkins or similar, your body produces these proteins called ketones which allow your muscles to burn fat, rather than glucose. Anyhow, in the production of ketosis, your body produces a small amount of acetone (I think), you breath this out, hense weird Atkins diet breath. Which I guess confuses the breathalyser. I don't know much beyond that, but what I do know is that I've googled it and it is a thing. I've not made it up.
So, he's talking it out with his boss as to wether it's worth staying on the diet. But I'm a lorry driver, and I work in Scotland, with the new lower limits. My question is, if I get pulled over/involved in an accident/randomly tested, am I within my rights (assume I fail a breath test) to demand a blood test, either in the Scotland or anywhere else?
Thanks for any advice,.
Ps. please don't give me any lectures on what your views are on such an extreme diet and its percieved health risks that you might want to lecture me about. I've had it all before, only am now 5 stone lighter (and healthier) than I was before, on a diet that was designed to help diabetics shed the pounds quick.
Breathalysers, certainly all that I have used or come across only measure the amount of ethanol in your breath. although they factor in things like food, mouth wash etc, in reality these will not affect a breath teat. Station machines will pick up ambient substances and null the test, but it's only the ethanol which is picked up and measured
It is more likely the machine used was unreliable. Do you know the machine used? Assuming it was a roadside one?
It is more likely the machine used was unreliable. Do you know the machine used? Assuming it was a roadside one?
Am guessing it was a vocational breath test, as if he'd blown 78mg on a roadside check (if what you've said re: ethanol weren't the case) he would presumably be on his way to losing his license anyway at which point his job would be somewhat academic.
Seems like you've answered it on that front anyway. You'd have thought that it would be a pretty widely reported issue if people on extreme diets were failing evidential breath tests and getting banned.
Seems like you've answered it on that front anyway. You'd have thought that it would be a pretty widely reported issue if people on extreme diets were failing evidential breath tests and getting banned.
Not sure about the breath test part but never been a fan of very low carb diets.
You lose some muscle mass normally as well as fat and it puts a lot of strain on your body.
Ketosis is what happens to people with undiagnosed diabetes as well, although that's obviously a lot worse.
Limited calories from a range of foods (fibre, carbs, fats, proteins etc) is the healthiest way to lose weight.
You lose some muscle mass normally as well as fat and it puts a lot of strain on your body.
Ketosis is what happens to people with undiagnosed diabetes as well, although that's obviously a lot worse.
Limited calories from a range of foods (fibre, carbs, fats, proteins etc) is the healthiest way to lose weight.
http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/25000/25600/25695/DOT-HS-80...
The conclusion seems to summarise it quite well.
The conclusion seems to summarise it quite well.
There is more than one technology used to detect alcohol in breath. Some of them are affected by ketones. Some of them are not.
See;
http://www.lionlaboratories.com/faq/lion-breath-an...
Is it true that a diabetic can register positive on a Lion breathalyser, even if he or she hasn’t been drinking?
Untreated or poorly treated diabetic persons may generate a chemical substance called acetone in their breath. This is a by-product of the breakdown of fat, which the body uses as an energy source if they lack the insulin that is needed to metabolise the usual energy source – sugar. Some breath analysis instruments are unable to distinguish this acetone from alcohol, so that a falsely high ‘alcohol’ reading would indeed be possible. However, all Lion instruments use analytical technology that is unaffected by breath acetone, so that the reading obtained will be due to alcohol only.
How specific are the Lion breath instruments to ALCOHOL in breath?
All lion alcolmeter®instruments use a fuel cell sensor for the actual analysis process: this has a very high specificity to alcohol in breath. In fact, there will generally be nothing else in the breath of a living human which could cause an apparent ‘alcohol’ reading on this equipment. Fuel cell based instruments are certainly unaffected by hydrocarbons such as petrol; and by ketones, as may be present in the breath of a person such as a diabetic, or someone on a low-carbohydrate diet. These sensors will though respond to other alcohols apart from ethanol – such as methanol or propanol – although it is highly unlikely that anyone would have any of these present in their breath to any degree, if at all. And even if they did, they would still be impaired anyway!The infrared based lion intoxilyzer® range of instruments are different. These are designed to meet current national and international specifications [such as OIML R126], which effectively require them to be specific to ethanol. This is achieved by multi-filtering infrared optical techniques, in conjunction with the controlling analytical software.
I have seen some very low cost breath instruments on sale on the internet, and in petrol stations: are they any good? How do they compare with Lion’s?
Unlike Lion instruments, which all use fuel cell analytical technology, these products almost invariably use semi-conductor sensors for the actual alcohol analysis. Although low in cost, these semi-conductor sensors suffer from a number of technical limitations and, as such, are not used in the equipment that is used by any Police Force.
See;
http://www.lionlaboratories.com/faq/lion-breath-an...
Is it true that a diabetic can register positive on a Lion breathalyser, even if he or she hasn’t been drinking?
Untreated or poorly treated diabetic persons may generate a chemical substance called acetone in their breath. This is a by-product of the breakdown of fat, which the body uses as an energy source if they lack the insulin that is needed to metabolise the usual energy source – sugar. Some breath analysis instruments are unable to distinguish this acetone from alcohol, so that a falsely high ‘alcohol’ reading would indeed be possible. However, all Lion instruments use analytical technology that is unaffected by breath acetone, so that the reading obtained will be due to alcohol only.
How specific are the Lion breath instruments to ALCOHOL in breath?
All lion alcolmeter®instruments use a fuel cell sensor for the actual analysis process: this has a very high specificity to alcohol in breath. In fact, there will generally be nothing else in the breath of a living human which could cause an apparent ‘alcohol’ reading on this equipment. Fuel cell based instruments are certainly unaffected by hydrocarbons such as petrol; and by ketones, as may be present in the breath of a person such as a diabetic, or someone on a low-carbohydrate diet. These sensors will though respond to other alcohols apart from ethanol – such as methanol or propanol – although it is highly unlikely that anyone would have any of these present in their breath to any degree, if at all. And even if they did, they would still be impaired anyway!The infrared based lion intoxilyzer® range of instruments are different. These are designed to meet current national and international specifications [such as OIML R126], which effectively require them to be specific to ethanol. This is achieved by multi-filtering infrared optical techniques, in conjunction with the controlling analytical software.
I have seen some very low cost breath instruments on sale on the internet, and in petrol stations: are they any good? How do they compare with Lion’s?
Unlike Lion instruments, which all use fuel cell analytical technology, these products almost invariably use semi-conductor sensors for the actual alcohol analysis. Although low in cost, these semi-conductor sensors suffer from a number of technical limitations and, as such, are not used in the equipment that is used by any Police Force.
otolith said:
(I knew about the page quoted above because that's the type of breathalyser used on the train driver who failed a breath test and tried to blame it on diabetes while the union backed him up with a strike - found that page while working out whether he was talking out of his arse)
Lion seem to be a very good company. Always seem to counter any false claims, and cover all angles. Also true of some asthma inhalers: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11900701
As an asthmatic, I dread being pinged for this one, and am very careful to avoid inhaler use before driving
As an asthmatic, I dread being pinged for this one, and am very careful to avoid inhaler use before driving
I don't know if it has changed, but in my time the situation was well known and the substantive breath test machine used at the station would shut down if a high level of acetone was detected and merely print that out.
I used to train SBM operators and also used to put officers on the machine in drink drive lessons so have done quite a few in lessons. I think I have sent three officers to their doctors as suspected diabetics, one being put on treatment, injections I assumed, immediately.
I've no notes left, but if memory serves, the SBM can cope with small amounts of acetone in its calculations, eliminating its effects, but high levels 'mask' alcohol readings. Opting for blood in these cases heads off any chance of a challenge from a desperate defence.
I've completed dozens of operational substantive breath tests and not had one shut down due to acetone.
I seem to remember a case going to appeal on high acetone in the breath due to a chronic illness, or its treatment. Levels would vary and the defence suggested that this was unfair on the woman. I can't remember the decision but there were no changes to policy.
I remember another case which involved someone who regarded himself as important locally. Acetone generated by diet gives rise to differing readings. The process, of two specimens of breath within a short period of time, will, the judges were told, remove any acetone from the lungs in the first specimen. Had it been dietary acetone, the second specimen would have been significantly different. It wasn't and the conviction was upheld. We had to supply an SBM to the appeal court, but I'm not sure on which side's demand.
Most of these stories of false readings come from imaginative defence teams
On SBM operator courses I used to ask the students to come up with a defence to a charge, running from failure to provide on the street, at the nick and providing a positive. I got three that were, I felt, unarguable and I went to my chief inspector to ask if I could put them to the CPS for a decision as to whether we should change procedures. My CI reckoned that it would not be a good idea to give lawyers ways out of DD charges. One, the weakest of the three as it wasn't a legal point, was a trick with the 'bag' at the scene, which doesn't work with the electronic screening device, and in any case required a bit of dexterity that would have been difficult if you were drunk, but the other two, whilst needing the driver to have his senses about him, would still run
My best one was a barrister driving his car into another in the Inner Temple one afternoon, after late lunch time. I was told that my jurisdiction did not extend into the Temples and they were papal peculiars and only the vicar of christ could punish him. He refused at the scene and back at the nick, claiming that he wanted to speak with the pope.
He pleaded.
I used to train SBM operators and also used to put officers on the machine in drink drive lessons so have done quite a few in lessons. I think I have sent three officers to their doctors as suspected diabetics, one being put on treatment, injections I assumed, immediately.
I've no notes left, but if memory serves, the SBM can cope with small amounts of acetone in its calculations, eliminating its effects, but high levels 'mask' alcohol readings. Opting for blood in these cases heads off any chance of a challenge from a desperate defence.
I've completed dozens of operational substantive breath tests and not had one shut down due to acetone.
I seem to remember a case going to appeal on high acetone in the breath due to a chronic illness, or its treatment. Levels would vary and the defence suggested that this was unfair on the woman. I can't remember the decision but there were no changes to policy.
I remember another case which involved someone who regarded himself as important locally. Acetone generated by diet gives rise to differing readings. The process, of two specimens of breath within a short period of time, will, the judges were told, remove any acetone from the lungs in the first specimen. Had it been dietary acetone, the second specimen would have been significantly different. It wasn't and the conviction was upheld. We had to supply an SBM to the appeal court, but I'm not sure on which side's demand.
Most of these stories of false readings come from imaginative defence teams
On SBM operator courses I used to ask the students to come up with a defence to a charge, running from failure to provide on the street, at the nick and providing a positive. I got three that were, I felt, unarguable and I went to my chief inspector to ask if I could put them to the CPS for a decision as to whether we should change procedures. My CI reckoned that it would not be a good idea to give lawyers ways out of DD charges. One, the weakest of the three as it wasn't a legal point, was a trick with the 'bag' at the scene, which doesn't work with the electronic screening device, and in any case required a bit of dexterity that would have been difficult if you were drunk, but the other two, whilst needing the driver to have his senses about him, would still run
My best one was a barrister driving his car into another in the Inner Temple one afternoon, after late lunch time. I was told that my jurisdiction did not extend into the Temples and they were papal peculiars and only the vicar of christ could punish him. He refused at the scene and back at the nick, claiming that he wanted to speak with the pope.
He pleaded.
Interesting thread, I saw an interesting TED talk a while about about where fat goes when you are losing fat. And most of it comes out in your breath mainly as carbon dioxide but other chemicals are present also due to the chemical reactions that take place.
The Science Bit - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/14121...
The Science Bit - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/12/14121...
Edited by Foliage on Friday 28th August 15:11
otolith said:
Foliage said:
And 100% of it comes out in your breath mainly as carbon dioxide but other chemicals are present also due to the chemical reactions that take place.
Apart from the bit of it that comes out as water; fat is mostly (CH2)nThanks all for the replies. Very helpful.
quote=Durzel]Am guessing it was a vocational breath test.
[/quote]
Correct
[quote=Mk3Spitfire]Do you know the machine used? Assuming it was a roadside one?
[/quote]
I don't I'm afraid. A company comes into his workplace every so often and pulls them aside and tests them, that's all I know I'm afraid.
[quote=otolith]Spam is low carb, but I suspect that isn't what the OP has been eating.
[/quote]
Honestly couldn't remember whaen I last ate that stuff. But might go down tescos in honour of this and get some.
[quote=otolith]Unlike Lion instruments, which all use fuel cell analytical technology, these products almost invariably use semi-conductor sensors for the actual alcohol analysis. Although low in cost, these semi-conductor sensors suffer from a number of technical limitations and, as such, are not used in the equipment that is used by any Police Force.
[/quote]
This makes me feel much happier, thank you.
quote=Durzel]Am guessing it was a vocational breath test.
[/quote]
Correct
[quote=Mk3Spitfire]Do you know the machine used? Assuming it was a roadside one?
[/quote]
I don't I'm afraid. A company comes into his workplace every so often and pulls them aside and tests them, that's all I know I'm afraid.
[quote=otolith]Spam is low carb, but I suspect that isn't what the OP has been eating.
[/quote]
Honestly couldn't remember whaen I last ate that stuff. But might go down tescos in honour of this and get some.
[quote=otolith]Unlike Lion instruments, which all use fuel cell analytical technology, these products almost invariably use semi-conductor sensors for the actual alcohol analysis. Although low in cost, these semi-conductor sensors suffer from a number of technical limitations and, as such, are not used in the equipment that is used by any Police Force.
[/quote]
This makes me feel much happier, thank you.
Also, for anyone thinking my brother is telling porkies, I'll clear it up. He (like myself) basically doesn't drink unless there is a reason to do so. Basically, we both might drink once every 3 or 4 months if in the UK, or when on holidays abroad. I can assure you he had zero alcohol in his system when the tests were taken.
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