Bicycle/Taxi interface - Who's at fault?
Discussion
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Agreed, but a car owes a bigger duty of care to a cyclist than a cyclist does to a car. Just as a cyclist owes a bigger duty of care to a pedestrian than a pedestrian does to a cyclist.
That's not to say a cyclist can't be at fault if in collision with a car, but if I'm in a car and I hit a cyclist in a 50/50 collision, then the onus was on me to avoid that situation. Seeing as the cyclist was always likely to be the loser damage/injury wise.
If the same collision had taken place between a lorry and a car, then the lorry would have the greater responsibility.
Where did you get that little gem of the theory from? That's not to say a cyclist can't be at fault if in collision with a car, but if I'm in a car and I hit a cyclist in a 50/50 collision, then the onus was on me to avoid that situation. Seeing as the cyclist was always likely to be the loser damage/injury wise.
If the same collision had taken place between a lorry and a car, then the lorry would have the greater responsibility.
I'd say in a 50/50 collision, both parties were equally at fault, by definition. Don't give the cyclists any more of a halo than they already expect!I'd say it was largely the taxi's fault.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Agreed, but a car owes a bigger duty of care to a cyclist than a cyclist does to a car. Just as a cyclist owes a bigger duty of care to a pedestrian than a pedestrian does to a cyclist.
That's not to say a cyclist can't be at fault if in collision with a car, but if I'm in a car and I hit a cyclist in a 50/50 collision, then the onus was on me to avoid that situation. Seeing as the cyclist was always likely to be the loser damage/injury wise.
If the same collision had taken place between a lorry and a car, then the lorry would have the greater responsibility.
Given the circumstances, when a cyclist cuts a blind corner and collides with you in around half a second, and probably would have hit you even if you had been standing still, what would you have done to avoid the collision?That's not to say a cyclist can't be at fault if in collision with a car, but if I'm in a car and I hit a cyclist in a 50/50 collision, then the onus was on me to avoid that situation. Seeing as the cyclist was always likely to be the loser damage/injury wise.
If the same collision had taken place between a lorry and a car, then the lorry would have the greater responsibility.
Edited by Pete317 on Friday 28th August 09:10
Pete317 said:
Given the circumstances, when a cyclist cuts a blind corner and collides with you in around half a second, and probably would have hit you even if you had been standing still, what would you have done to avoid the collision?
Well that wouldn't be 50/50, would it???? Edited by Pete317 on Friday 28th August 09:10
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Pete317 said:
Given the circumstances, when a cyclist cuts a blind corner and collides with you in around half a second, and probably would have hit you even if you had been standing still, what would you have done to avoid the collision?
Well that wouldn't be 50/50, would it???? Edited by Pete317 on Friday 28th August 09:10
Make up your mind!
mouseymousey said:
dacouch said:
By now the taxi driver will have two independent witnesses
And severe whiplash and loss of earnings.Pontoneer said:
No road markings implies no priority .
I'd agree that either party could have avoided the incident by exercising greater caution / anticipation that someone might have been around the corner , therefore each equally at fault .
Oh , and this may be of interest
http://www.hovding.com/how_hovding_works
Not sure I would trust that to be honest, and not entirely practical for the type of cycling that I like to do.I'd agree that either party could have avoided the incident by exercising greater caution / anticipation that someone might have been around the corner , therefore each equally at fault .
Oh , and this may be of interest
http://www.hovding.com/how_hovding_works
flemke said:
The spot where the collision happened - is that considered to be "public" road, or privately-owned with public right-of-way?
The part that I was initially cycling down before the "junction" is a council road, there are however no signs that indicate when/if this transitions to a private road, so I'm unsure with that one.divetheworld said:
16mph can be pretty fast in respect to stopping a push bike, as is now evident.
You both could have avoided the collision. Without clear road markings, you both have responsibilities to looking, and acting with caution.
As others have said, seems like 50/50 unless.....
Were you wearing Lycra?
I agree that it could have been avoided, and no I'm not that type of cyclist (mountain bike).You both could have avoided the collision. Without clear road markings, you both have responsibilities to looking, and acting with caution.
As others have said, seems like 50/50 unless.....
Were you wearing Lycra?
Pete317 said:
From the way you cut around that blind corner, you would have been visible to each other for about half a second before the collision - not enough time for any avoiding action whatsoever.
In fact, it's probable that you would have hit the taxi even had it been parked there.
I didn't cut around a blind corner, the visibility directly in front of me was clear.In fact, it's probable that you would have hit the taxi even had it been parked there.
Edited by Pete317 on Friday 28th August 08:30
I would say that the second picture is more accurate to the line I took (slightly wider line than the first picture indicates).
Had it been parked where the collision occurred, I wouldn't have hit it as I would have seen it. From my view it was more a case of straight lining with clear view directly in front of me.
Just to clear up few things.
He hit me, I did not hit him.
His front bumper hit my front wheel/forks at around where the number plate begins, you can see this from the damage where the handlebars dented the bonnet as it pivoted about that point.
I did apply the brakes but I'm unsure how much speed I scrubbed off exactly, that 16 mph is the speed I was travelling just before the corner.
But yes I do agree it could have been avoidable, and it is a valuable lesson learnt.
Edited by intrepid44 on Friday 28th August 09:43
If he hit you side-on then surely your momentum would have carried you over the side of the bonnet and it's unlikely you would have contacted the windscreen?
Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
Let's assume you were driving a car.
I think the taxi driver should have edged out of his turning into the bigger road in knowing that anything might have been coming from the right, same as any blind junction. I think if you had been a car, the taxi would be at fault due to point of impact - he hit you.
Glad you weren't hurt too bad. I got taken out by a car a couple of years ago - it certainly makes you more cautious at junctions - in scenarios similar to the one I experienced I crap myself every time - not a good look in lycra
I think the taxi driver should have edged out of his turning into the bigger road in knowing that anything might have been coming from the right, same as any blind junction. I think if you had been a car, the taxi would be at fault due to point of impact - he hit you.
Glad you weren't hurt too bad. I got taken out by a car a couple of years ago - it certainly makes you more cautious at junctions - in scenarios similar to the one I experienced I crap myself every time - not a good look in lycra
Pete317 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Pete317 said:
Given the circumstances, when a cyclist cuts a blind corner and collides with you in around half a second, and probably would have hit you even if you had been standing still, what would you have done to avoid the collision?
Well that wouldn't be 50/50, would it???? Edited by Pete317 on Friday 28th August 09:10
Make up your mind!
Pete317 said:
If he hit you side-on then surely your momentum would have carried you over the side of the bonnet and it's unlikely you would have contacted the windscreen?
Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
My head impacted about mid-way up on the left hand side of the windscreen, the car was a Ford Galaxy. So a fairly short bonnet.Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
I didn't mention a picture of the damage if you read my post correctly, I unfortunately didn't think to get a photo of the damage at the time.
The police did take a photo however, so if it comes to anything further then it is available, and the damage points are recorded, I'm not lying!
intrepid44 said:
The part that I was initially cycling down before the "junction" is a council road, there are however no signs that indicate when/if this transitions to a private road, so I'm unsure with that one.
Still counts as a road for RTA purposes.intrepid44 said:
I didn't cut around a blind corner, the visibility directly in front of me was clear.
Oh, OK, so you missed the taxi...?At the guesstimated 10mph, he'd have been travelling about one car length per second - at 16mph, you'd have been travelling 60% further.
intrepid44 said:
He hit me, I did not hit him.
You both hit each other.intrepid44 said:
His front bumper hit my front wheel/forks at around where the number plate begins, you can see this from the damage where the handlebars dented the bonnet as it pivoted about that point.
This baffles me. How come you didn't get pushed sideways, away from the windscreen? If you'd hit the side of his front bumper, the handlebars could easily still have hit that point, as the front wheel would have gone sideways and the bike upwards. Is there any impact mark on his bumper itself?intrepid44 said:
Pete317 said:
If he hit you side-on then surely your momentum would have carried you over the side of the bonnet and it's unlikely you would have contacted the windscreen?
Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
My head impacted about mid-way up on the left hand side of the windscreen, the car was a Ford Galaxy. So a fairly short bonnet.Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
I didn't mention a picture of the damage if you read my post correctly, I unfortunately didn't think to get a photo of the damage at the time.
The police did take a photo however, so if it comes to anything further then it is available, and the damage points are recorded, I'm not lying!
You say that the handlebars damaged the bonnet when they pivoted around, but that implies that the wheel was pointing somewhat towards the car at impact. It's a bit difficult to visualise a scenario other than that without a photo.
I accept that the car has a fairly short bonnet, but then again, assuming you had been hit side-on and your speeds had been the same, you would have gone across the bonnet at a 45 degree angle. If you were going faster than the taxi then the angle would have been shallower still.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Pete317 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Pete317 said:
Given the circumstances, when a cyclist cuts a blind corner and collides with you in around half a second, and probably would have hit you even if you had been standing still, what would you have done to avoid the collision?
Well that wouldn't be 50/50, would it???? Edited by Pete317 on Friday 28th August 09:10
Make up your mind!
OK, I'll rephrase my original question: Given the circumstances, when a cyclist cuts a blind corner and is only visible to you for around half a second before the collision, what would you have done to avoid the collision?
Edited by Pete317 on Friday 28th August 11:02
Pete317 said:
intrepid44 said:
Pete317 said:
If he hit you side-on then surely your momentum would have carried you over the side of the bonnet and it's unlikely you would have contacted the windscreen?
Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
My head impacted about mid-way up on the left hand side of the windscreen, the car was a Ford Galaxy. So a fairly short bonnet.Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
I didn't mention a picture of the damage if you read my post correctly, I unfortunately didn't think to get a photo of the damage at the time.
The police did take a photo however, so if it comes to anything further then it is available, and the damage points are recorded, I'm not lying!
You say that the handlebars damaged the bonnet when they pivoted around, but that implies that the wheel was pointing somewhat towards the car at impact. It's a bit difficult to visualise a scenario other than that without a photo.
I accept that the car has a fairly short bonnet, but then again, assuming you had been hit side-on and your speeds had been the same, you would have gone across the bonnet at a 45 degree angle. If you were going faster than the taxi then the angle would have been shallower still.
Pete317 said:
Which part of "and probably would have hit you even if you had been standing still" are you having problems with?
OK, I'll rephrase my original question: Given the circumstances, when a cyclist cuts a blind corner and is only visible to you for around half a second before the collision, what would you have done to avoid the collision?
Errr...perhaps approach the junction at a slower speed. OK, I'll rephrase my original question: Given the circumstances, when a cyclist cuts a blind corner and is only visible to you for around half a second before the collision, what would you have done to avoid the collision?
Edited by Pete317 on Friday 28th August 11:02
TooMany2cvs said:
intrepid44 said:
His front bumper hit my front wheel/forks at around where the number plate begins, you can see this from the damage where the handlebars dented the bonnet as it pivoted about that point.
This baffles me. How come you didn't get pushed sideways, away from the windscreen? If you'd hit the side of his front bumper, the handlebars could easily still have hit that point, as the front wheel would have gone sideways and the bike upwards. Is there any impact mark on his bumper itself?Of course, there will be a small amount of that force which does push away but this is insignificant compared to the rotation.
I would imagine there is an impact mark on the bumper but I don't know for sure, I do remember there being a big dent and scratch where the handlebar impacted the bonnet however, and there was massive bruising to my right shin which impacted the top bar of the frame.
intrepid44 said:
flemke said:
The spot where the collision happened - is that considered to be "public" road, or privately-owned with public right-of-way?
The part that I was initially cycling down before the "junction" is a council road, there are however no signs that indicate when/if this transitions to a private road, so I'm unsure with that one.It appears that the "left fork" that you had just begun to take was onto private property. The road you had just exited was Frankland Lane, a council road.
Just after leaving Frankland Lane and joining the private road, one can go straight on, or one can take a 45° left turning, leading to a large garage or warehouse.
This is in the centre of your image.
If one does not turn 45° left towards the garage, going straight ahead appears eventually to lead one to a breaker's yard. This is not quite visible in your image. Both the turning to the garage and the road straight-ahead to the breaker's yard appear to be dead-ends.
According to your yellow line, the taxi was coming from the warehouse, whereas you were headed straight towards the breaker's yard. Is that correct?
Next question: at every point through that area, the road is wide enough for at least 2 vehicles. At the point where you and the taxi made contact, where was the taxi's lateral position in relation to "his" road: was he all the way over on his left, as he should have been if there had been a centre line?
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