Another NIP - A depressing experience
Discussion
But it's a stupid statement that leads to lots of false debate. Saying it's the energy not the speed is useless. They are both part of what happens. But with a thing like a car hitting a person then its the speed which is the simplest determinant of the outcome.
If we were debating the effect of a fly hitting a ped as opposed to a car we would probably be interested in the energy.
If we were debating the effect of a fly hitting a ped as opposed to a car we would probably be interested in the energy.
BertBert said:
But it's a stupid statement that leads to lots of false debate. Saying it's the energy not the speed is useless. They are both part of what happens. But with a thing like a car hitting a person then its the speed which is the simplest determinant of the outcome.
If we were debating the effect of a fly hitting a ped as opposed to a car we would probably be interested in the energy.
Fair pointsIf we were debating the effect of a fly hitting a ped as opposed to a car we would probably be interested in the energy.
if you modify your driving/riding behaviour, getting the odd ticket can actually be an uplifting experience. i got one a couple of months back ,and when checking it turned out it had been almost 5 years since the last one.
100 quid fine ? absolute bargain for enjoying the roads up here ,rather than just plodding between destinations.
100 quid fine ? absolute bargain for enjoying the roads up here ,rather than just plodding between destinations.
It's evidently possible to surive relatively low speed impacts with a car which is travelling at 20mph or 30 mph, people do survive the changes in momentum. At those relatively slow speeds there's the chance factor to contend with. For example whether the pedestrian walks out into the road and effectively hits the side of the car, whether they run out and get an impact with the front end, then whether or not their head hits a part of the bonnet with no strut bracing underneath or maybe it hits the A-pillar, also whether a cyclist is knocked over and their head hits the kerb edge or a soft grass verge, helmeted or not, and with a motorcyclist they may survive the impact and slide inititally only to end up under the wheels of an HGV. The point from this is that speed is always going to be a factor but is it such a major factor as to warrant the degree of emphasis at the expense of other more frequent factors that cause accidents and influence the outcomes.
Then there's the thorny issue of speed limits and how those limits are represented in accident stats. For accidents involving drivers over the age of 26, exceeding the posted limit was a contributory factor in only 2% of accidents according to DfT data presented to a House of Commons committee. For younger drivers it came in at 8%. Clearly excessive speed for the conditions is far more important, but even there the data doesn't play ball as shown by one West Midlands Police Road Accident Review report which logged ~1300 collisions between a car and a pedestrian, of which 13 involved speed as a contributory factor while over 1280 involved a pedestrian walking or running into the road without due care. In urban areas at relatively low speed the outcome of those impacts would have had the same degree of chance involved as outlined above.
One more part of the equation involves the law of unintended consequences.
In one way we're still on topic in terms of speed awareness courses, in that it's doubtful the information above is shared at them, not having been on one it's interesting to read on threads like this one what does actually happen.
Then there's the thorny issue of speed limits and how those limits are represented in accident stats. For accidents involving drivers over the age of 26, exceeding the posted limit was a contributory factor in only 2% of accidents according to DfT data presented to a House of Commons committee. For younger drivers it came in at 8%. Clearly excessive speed for the conditions is far more important, but even there the data doesn't play ball as shown by one West Midlands Police Road Accident Review report which logged ~1300 collisions between a car and a pedestrian, of which 13 involved speed as a contributory factor while over 1280 involved a pedestrian walking or running into the road without due care. In urban areas at relatively low speed the outcome of those impacts would have had the same degree of chance involved as outlined above.
One more part of the equation involves the law of unintended consequences.
North Wales Daily Post said:
Elderly man died after car hit him
A pensioner was knocked over by a car as he crossed a road just 40 metres from a controlled pedestrian crossing.
Retired mechanic Noah Edwards, 76, died in hospital two days after he was knocked over on the High Street in Coedpoeth, on January 13. Bachelor Mr Edwards, of Bryn Clywedog, Coedpoeth, was partially sighted and had been an abuser of alcohol, north east Wales coroner John Hughes told a Flint inquest.
As he came along the High Street in Coedpoeth, the driver slowed down because he knew it was a speed trap area.
"I checked my speed, looked up again and saw a figure in front of me and slammed on the brakes. He just seemed to be stood there, I didn't see where the pedestrian came from," he said.
The ability of drivers to adjust speed according to conditions is critical but politicians at all levels are doing their best to programme this essential skill out of drivers by promoting blind adherence to an arbitrary speed limit with focus on the speedo. If only the same effort was expended on factors which appear in the 20% to 30% range as contributory factors rather than 2% to 8%.A pensioner was knocked over by a car as he crossed a road just 40 metres from a controlled pedestrian crossing.
Retired mechanic Noah Edwards, 76, died in hospital two days after he was knocked over on the High Street in Coedpoeth, on January 13. Bachelor Mr Edwards, of Bryn Clywedog, Coedpoeth, was partially sighted and had been an abuser of alcohol, north east Wales coroner John Hughes told a Flint inquest.
As he came along the High Street in Coedpoeth, the driver slowed down because he knew it was a speed trap area.
"I checked my speed, looked up again and saw a figure in front of me and slammed on the brakes. He just seemed to be stood there, I didn't see where the pedestrian came from," he said.
In one way we're still on topic in terms of speed awareness courses, in that it's doubtful the information above is shared at them, not having been on one it's interesting to read on threads like this one what does actually happen.
turbobloke said:
It's evidently possible to surive relatively low speed impacts with a car which is travelling at 20mph or 30 mph, people do survive the changes in momentum. At those relatively slow speeds there's the chance factor to contend with. For example whether the pedestrian walks out into the road and effectively hits the side of the car, whether they run out and get an impact with the front end, then whether or not their head hits a part of the bonnet with no strut bracing underneath or maybe it hits the A-pillar, also whether a cyclist is knocked over and their head hits the kerb edge or a soft grass verge, helmeted or not, and with a motorcyclist they may survive the impact and slide inititally only to end up under the wheels of an HGV. The point from this is that speed is always going to be a factor but is it such a major factor as to warrant the degree of emphasis at the expense of other more frequent factors that cause accidents and influence the outcomes.
Then there's the thorny issue of speed limits and how those limits are represented in accident stats. For accidents involving drivers over the age of 26, exceeding the posted limit was a contributory factor in only 2% of accidents according to DfT data presented to a House of Commons committee. For younger drivers it came in at 8%. Clearly excessive speed for the conditions is far more important, but even there the data doesn't play ball as shown by one West Midlands Police Road Accident Review report which logged ~1300 collisions between a car and a pedestrian, of which 13 involved speed as a contributory factor while over 1280 involved a pedestrian walking or running into the road without due care. In urban areas at relatively low speed the outcome of those impacts would have had the same degree of chance involved as outlined above.
One more part of the equation involves the law of unintended consequences.
In one way we're still on topic in terms of speed awareness courses, in that it's doubtful the information above is shared at them, not having been on one it's interesting to read on threads like this one what does actually happen.
you are not making sense. how can you comment on what is or is not being discussed on a course you have never been on. for your information issues like this are a part of the course.Then there's the thorny issue of speed limits and how those limits are represented in accident stats. For accidents involving drivers over the age of 26, exceeding the posted limit was a contributory factor in only 2% of accidents according to DfT data presented to a House of Commons committee. For younger drivers it came in at 8%. Clearly excessive speed for the conditions is far more important, but even there the data doesn't play ball as shown by one West Midlands Police Road Accident Review report which logged ~1300 collisions between a car and a pedestrian, of which 13 involved speed as a contributory factor while over 1280 involved a pedestrian walking or running into the road without due care. In urban areas at relatively low speed the outcome of those impacts would have had the same degree of chance involved as outlined above.
One more part of the equation involves the law of unintended consequences.
North Wales Daily Post said:
Elderly man died after car hit him
A pensioner was knocked over by a car as he crossed a road just 40 metres from a controlled pedestrian crossing.
Retired mechanic Noah Edwards, 76, died in hospital two days after he was knocked over on the High Street in Coedpoeth, on January 13. Bachelor Mr Edwards, of Bryn Clywedog, Coedpoeth, was partially sighted and had been an abuser of alcohol, north east Wales coroner John Hughes told a Flint inquest.
As he came along the High Street in Coedpoeth, the driver slowed down because he knew it was a speed trap area.
"I checked my speed, looked up again and saw a figure in front of me and slammed on the brakes. He just seemed to be stood there, I didn't see where the pedestrian came from," he said.
The ability of drivers to adjust speed according to conditions is critical but politicians at all levels are doing their best to programme this essential skill out of drivers by promoting blind adherence to an arbitrary speed limit with focus on the speedo. If only the same effort was expended on factors which appear in the 20% to 30% range as contributory factors rather than 2% to 8%.A pensioner was knocked over by a car as he crossed a road just 40 metres from a controlled pedestrian crossing.
Retired mechanic Noah Edwards, 76, died in hospital two days after he was knocked over on the High Street in Coedpoeth, on January 13. Bachelor Mr Edwards, of Bryn Clywedog, Coedpoeth, was partially sighted and had been an abuser of alcohol, north east Wales coroner John Hughes told a Flint inquest.
As he came along the High Street in Coedpoeth, the driver slowed down because he knew it was a speed trap area.
"I checked my speed, looked up again and saw a figure in front of me and slammed on the brakes. He just seemed to be stood there, I didn't see where the pedestrian came from," he said.
In one way we're still on topic in terms of speed awareness courses, in that it's doubtful the information above is shared at them, not having been on one it's interesting to read on threads like this one what does actually happen.
oh! and when the impact speed between a pedestrian and a car is raised to 70mph or thereabouts the difference in mass between the two can conspire to cut the pedestrian in half or throw the pedestrian many tens of metres.
Stickyfinger said:
0000 said:
Still surprised gravity is relevant.
why ?Anything that moves has kinetic energy.
The amount of kinetic energy that an object has
depends on how fast it is moving (its velocity)
and its mass.
Kinetic Energy = 0·5 x mass x velocity2
tapereel said:
turbobloke said:
It's evidently possible to surive relatively low speed impacts with a car which is travelling at 20mph or 30 mph, people do survive the changes in momentum. At those relatively slow speeds there's the chance factor to contend with. For example whether the pedestrian walks out into the road and effectively hits the side of the car, whether they run out and get an impact with the front end, then whether or not their head hits a part of the bonnet with no strut bracing underneath or maybe it hits the A-pillar, also whether a cyclist is knocked over and their head hits the kerb edge or a soft grass verge, helmeted or not, and with a motorcyclist they may survive the impact and slide inititally only to end up under the wheels of an HGV. The point from this is that speed is always going to be a factor but is it such a major factor as to warrant the degree of emphasis at the expense of other more frequent factors that cause accidents and influence the outcomes.
Then there's the thorny issue of speed limits and how those limits are represented in accident stats. For accidents involving drivers over the age of 26, exceeding the posted limit was a contributory factor in only 2% of accidents according to DfT data presented to a House of Commons committee. For younger drivers it came in at 8%. Clearly excessive speed for the conditions is far more important, but even there the data doesn't play ball as shown by one West Midlands Police Road Accident Review report which logged ~1300 collisions between a car and a pedestrian, of which 13 involved speed as a contributory factor while over 1280 involved a pedestrian walking or running into the road without due care. In urban areas at relatively low speed the outcome of those impacts would have had the same degree of chance involved as outlined above.
One more part of the equation involves the law of unintended consequences.
In one way we're still on topic in terms of speed awareness courses, in that it's doubtful the information above is shared at them, not having been on one it's interesting to read on threads like this one what does actually happen.
you are not making sense. how can you comment on what is or is not being discussed on a course you have never been on. for your information issues like this are a part of the course.Then there's the thorny issue of speed limits and how those limits are represented in accident stats. For accidents involving drivers over the age of 26, exceeding the posted limit was a contributory factor in only 2% of accidents according to DfT data presented to a House of Commons committee. For younger drivers it came in at 8%. Clearly excessive speed for the conditions is far more important, but even there the data doesn't play ball as shown by one West Midlands Police Road Accident Review report which logged ~1300 collisions between a car and a pedestrian, of which 13 involved speed as a contributory factor while over 1280 involved a pedestrian walking or running into the road without due care. In urban areas at relatively low speed the outcome of those impacts would have had the same degree of chance involved as outlined above.
One more part of the equation involves the law of unintended consequences.
North Wales Daily Post said:
Elderly man died after car hit him
A pensioner was knocked over by a car as he crossed a road just 40 metres from a controlled pedestrian crossing.
Retired mechanic Noah Edwards, 76, died in hospital two days after he was knocked over on the High Street in Coedpoeth, on January 13. Bachelor Mr Edwards, of Bryn Clywedog, Coedpoeth, was partially sighted and had been an abuser of alcohol, north east Wales coroner John Hughes told a Flint inquest.
As he came along the High Street in Coedpoeth, the driver slowed down because he knew it was a speed trap area.
"I checked my speed, looked up again and saw a figure in front of me and slammed on the brakes. He just seemed to be stood there, I didn't see where the pedestrian came from," he said.
The ability of drivers to adjust speed according to conditions is critical but politicians at all levels are doing their best to programme this essential skill out of drivers by promoting blind adherence to an arbitrary speed limit with focus on the speedo. If only the same effort was expended on factors which appear in the 20% to 30% range as contributory factors rather than 2% to 8%.A pensioner was knocked over by a car as he crossed a road just 40 metres from a controlled pedestrian crossing.
Retired mechanic Noah Edwards, 76, died in hospital two days after he was knocked over on the High Street in Coedpoeth, on January 13. Bachelor Mr Edwards, of Bryn Clywedog, Coedpoeth, was partially sighted and had been an abuser of alcohol, north east Wales coroner John Hughes told a Flint inquest.
As he came along the High Street in Coedpoeth, the driver slowed down because he knew it was a speed trap area.
"I checked my speed, looked up again and saw a figure in front of me and slammed on the brakes. He just seemed to be stood there, I didn't see where the pedestrian came from," he said.
In one way we're still on topic in terms of speed awareness courses, in that it's doubtful the information above is shared at them, not having been on one it's interesting to read on threads like this one what does actually happen.
tapereel said:
oh! and when the impact speed between a pedestrian and a car is raised to 70mph or thereabouts the difference in mass between the two can conspire to cut the pedestrian in half or throw the pedestrian many tens of metres.
As the discussion was about relatively low speed impacts (clearly mentioed,, see the very first line in the post you quoted) high speed impacts are a different matter, and even there the use of KE in discussions is inferior to impulse. Fortunately there are no pedestrials on motorways almost always, and on normal urban roads the type of car achieving such a speed on a regular basis will have blue lights flashing.To be honest how many people here with a license several years old would pass a driving test (theory or practical) right now?
I would wager there would be a lot of failures through excessive minors, myself included. Having the ability to drive a car/bike is only part of the equation, arguably not even 1/2 of it.
Whilst there is no system of retests in this country, and education that teaches you to pass a test, I can see why a slavish devotion to speed limit enforcement makes sense. It's the only variable in the driving equation that they can control, and with budget cuts being what they are the chances of seeing more traffic cops on the road dealing with the offences cameras are blind to is increasingly diminished.
I have to do retests for IT competency qualifications, yet I passed my driving test over a decade ago and it's assumed I, and everyone else, never needs to recalibrate our abilities. Looking at that objectively it seems strange that we can all drive around these slabs of metal at great risk to others with such a comparatively low barrier to entry.
Until such time as driving standards are dramatically increased across the board, and driving on roads shared by others and pedestrians is treated with the reverence it deserves, I can't really see any other option than to use blunt objects like speed enforcement to control the things that can be controlled.
I would wager there would be a lot of failures through excessive minors, myself included. Having the ability to drive a car/bike is only part of the equation, arguably not even 1/2 of it.
Whilst there is no system of retests in this country, and education that teaches you to pass a test, I can see why a slavish devotion to speed limit enforcement makes sense. It's the only variable in the driving equation that they can control, and with budget cuts being what they are the chances of seeing more traffic cops on the road dealing with the offences cameras are blind to is increasingly diminished.
I have to do retests for IT competency qualifications, yet I passed my driving test over a decade ago and it's assumed I, and everyone else, never needs to recalibrate our abilities. Looking at that objectively it seems strange that we can all drive around these slabs of metal at great risk to others with such a comparatively low barrier to entry.
Until such time as driving standards are dramatically increased across the board, and driving on roads shared by others and pedestrians is treated with the reverence it deserves, I can't really see any other option than to use blunt objects like speed enforcement to control the things that can be controlled.
Edited by Durzel on Monday 31st August 10:05
Durzel said:
To be honest how many people here with a license several years old would pass a driving test (theory or practical) right now?
I would wager there would be a lot of failures through excessive minors, myself included. Having the ability to drive a car/bike is only part of the equation, arguably not even 1/2 of it.
Whilst there is no system of retests in this country, and education that teaches you to pass a test, I can see why a slavish devotion to speed limit enforcement makes sense. It's the only variable in the driving equation that they can control, and with budget cuts being what they are the chances of seeing more traffic cops on the road dealing with the offences cameras are blind to is increasingly diminished.
Me too, I can see how it makes sense, Von and I have swapped comments on this point over many years, but when the data shows clearly that speed limit adherence is not a major factor in acacidents, 2% to 8% across the age range of drivers, the face value benefit isn't helping and you have to wonder why there aren't more tailgating cameras and fewer speed cameras for example. Automated speed enforcement is a sledgehammer that's good at cracking out convictions, which is nuts when it's also very poor at generating safety fruits. On motorways with roadworks it's actually detrimental to safety.I would wager there would be a lot of failures through excessive minors, myself included. Having the ability to drive a car/bike is only part of the equation, arguably not even 1/2 of it.
Whilst there is no system of retests in this country, and education that teaches you to pass a test, I can see why a slavish devotion to speed limit enforcement makes sense. It's the only variable in the driving equation that they can control, and with budget cuts being what they are the chances of seeing more traffic cops on the road dealing with the offences cameras are blind to is increasingly diminished.
This is the impact on Personal Injury Accidents (PIAs) based on data in TRL 595.
| Effect on PIAs | Roadworks | Open motorway |
|---|---|---|
| Analogue speed cameras | 55% increase | 31% increase |
| Digital speed cameras | 5% increase | 7% increase |
| Police patrols | 27% reduction | 10% reduction |
The summary table as above is based around figures in the third section of the report. Data in the report is given as rate figures expressed in PIAs per million vehicle kilometres with a lower figure representing lower incidence of PIA crashes. Increases and decreases were measured against 'no speed camera' open motorway data.
Durzel said:
To be honest how many people here with a license several years old would pass a driving test (theory or practical) right now?
I would wager there would be a lot of failures through excessive minors, myself included. Having the ability to drive a car/bike is only part of the equation, arguably not even 1/2 of it.
Whilst there is no system of retests in this country, and education that teaches you to pass a test, I can see why a slavish devotion to speed limit enforcement makes sense. It's the only variable in the driving equation that they can control, and with budget cuts being what they are the chances of seeing more traffic cops on the road dealing with the offences cameras are blind to is increasingly diminished.
I have to do retests for IT competency qualifications, yet I passed my driving test over a decade ago and it's assumed I, and everyone else, never needs to recalibrate our abilities. Looking at that objectively it seems strange that we can all drive around these slabs of metal at great risk to others with such a comparatively low barrier to entry.
Until such time as driving standards are dramatically increased across the board, and driving on roads shared by others and pedestrians is treated with the reverence it deserves, I can't really see any other option than to use blunt objects like speed enforcement to control the things that can be controlled.
Well, newly-qualified drivers - those who have just passed the test - are not exactly under-represented in the accident statistics now, are they?I would wager there would be a lot of failures through excessive minors, myself included. Having the ability to drive a car/bike is only part of the equation, arguably not even 1/2 of it.
Whilst there is no system of retests in this country, and education that teaches you to pass a test, I can see why a slavish devotion to speed limit enforcement makes sense. It's the only variable in the driving equation that they can control, and with budget cuts being what they are the chances of seeing more traffic cops on the road dealing with the offences cameras are blind to is increasingly diminished.
I have to do retests for IT competency qualifications, yet I passed my driving test over a decade ago and it's assumed I, and everyone else, never needs to recalibrate our abilities. Looking at that objectively it seems strange that we can all drive around these slabs of metal at great risk to others with such a comparatively low barrier to entry.
Until such time as driving standards are dramatically increased across the board, and driving on roads shared by others and pedestrians is treated with the reverence it deserves, I can't really see any other option than to use blunt objects like speed enforcement to control the things that can be controlled.
Edited by Durzel on Monday 31st August 10:05
0000 said:
You seem completely oblivious to the difference between weight and mass. I'm not convinced you should be lecturing on this to anyone who left school after turning 14.
Nope, I am happy with the difference thanks....feel free to express your thoughts regarding an object/impact on a horizontal path of movement. Pete317 said:
Well, newly-qualified drivers - those who have just passed the test - are not exactly under-represented in the accident statistics now, are they?
Not quite true. Younger drivers are certainly over represented, and many of them are new to driving. But older drivers who have just passed their test hardly figure much above experienced older drivers.Get an online quote for a 19 y/o with a full licence 2 yrs, and then change the details to a 50 y/o who passed yesterday, and see how the premium drops.
wilwak said:
I've often thought that looking at my speedo whilst driving is quite dangerous. I really should be 100% focussed on the road!
When driving along a wide clear quiet 30 limit road I spend a disproportionate of my time looking at the speedo.
Wow! I'm able to get to a desired speed, and then maintain it without referring to the speedo at all. And I'm not a driving genius.When driving along a wide clear quiet 30 limit road I spend a disproportionate of my time looking at the speedo.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff